The Disappointment Hall Of Fame

[billeau2]

Marciano was one of the most durable HW's ever, but certainly not a "near perfect boxer" as we know it. He was a baseball player, a great athlete, and was the epitome of doing more with less. An over-achiever who had the heart, grit, and physical strength to overcome his shortcomings.

But Rock took too many punches, his punches were loopy, wide and crude, but he threw them from a very low center of gravity and got a lot of leverage on his punches. He put every ounce of his 185 pounds into a right hand. He could roll and catch punches, but also took a lot of of punches a "near perfect boxer" would have slipped and countered.

No disrespect to Marciano, like I said, he did more with less and fought whoever they put in front of him, but he was a brawler, a puncher...not a nuanced boxer. I think that is what makes him exceptional, he defeated some very good to great boxers in Charles and Walcott. I personally think Charles would have beaten him in that first fight had he not lost his killer instincts after killing a man in the ring. Rock's nose was hanging off of his face, it really should have been stopped.

Its interesting that Lamotta and Marciano could roll with those shots. it certainly must have taken incredible confidence to hang in there against Charles for that first fight, and I would add, the fight with Moore. Moore was an underestimated puncher (despite his record of KO's) and caught Marciano with some great leather.

As far as what made him exceptional? I am still writing the book on that one in this head of mine! Lol. There are things about Marciano that Margginechio mentions that make him one in many generations and I for one think Marg makes a great point, seeing boxing as he does, from a much expanded time line.

We are used to seeing men in the ring easily categorized. We generally know that when a talented young fighter like Garcia is going in, that his opponent, tough as nails, ready to fight like it means something, will go down because of the disparity in skills. Every now and then we get someone who alters that equation...Maybe even by a little bit. For example, when Juan Ma fought and was beat by Salidad, and it was said that "Salidad was the best fighter with such a losing record" lol.

The question I ask myself is if, there are men out there, with a force of such will, and just a special something, that would make them able to find a way, perhaps their own way, to win. And if such a man were to find a man who could train him, with his own peculiar methods, that accentuated what was thought to be negatives... Could we ever find another Marciano?

[The Old LefHook]

In what way was Marciano a "near perfect boxer"? Nearly every boxing historian or trainer/coach will give you a top to bottom breakdown as to why he was nothing of the sort.

By buggery, Ghost, you are not the first expert these advanced concepts and novel ideas have flummoxed.

Let me further elucidate why the Marciano was the most perfect and complete boxer of all time.

To begin with, the record was perfect. But though a perfect record is a necessary condition to be the GOAT, it is not by itself sufficient. Mayweather has a perfect record, too, but he is not the GOAT.

Another necessary condition is extraordinary courage. Rocky had this in abundance, as he proved several times, once with his nose laid open like a suitcase. Mayweather was short on courage, as evinced by his unwillingness to fight the toughest people when their reputations were still at their highest.

No cherry picking for the Marciano. He fought 'em all in the order they came, ducking none, mangling all.

The Marciano was so perfect he never needed to change or augment his style. It worked on every opponent. And his early style was perfect and sufficient for taking him to the championship and through a career. There was nothing to change. Why change a winner? If it is not broke, don't fix it.

When there is nothing to fix, you are already perfect, sir.

[just the facts]

Isn't this the discussion topic looming over virtually EVERY fighter not named Harry Greb?

When HAS a fighter achieved his full potential? When has a fighter made good on every opportunity afforded to him? Essentially, whenever we talk about fighters' greatness were talking about what they achieved in light of what we believe was possible. It's like an Easter Egg hunt: you CAN take all the eggs, but you won't; so hope to get the most and the best.

When you consider how many ATG fighters were finished before even reaching their physical prime, it becomes clear that the disappointments are more often the rule. Boxing is brutal, it draws from the most *************** element of society, and the erratic schedule and sudden onset of weatlh and fame tends to be even more damaging than life in the ring/gym.

It's an interesting topic, I suppose. But I guess you need to know what's meant by disappointment.

Vitali was a disappointment.

Conn was a disappointment.

McGovern was a disappointment.

Conney was a disappointment.

Whitaker was a disappointment.

Gregory was a disappointment.

Ayala Jr. was a disappointment.

Davis Jr. was a disappointment.

McCarty was a disappointment.

Douglas was a disappointment.

All for distinctly different reasons. All having achieved different levels of success.

If Whitaker means Pernell Whitaker, then you're an idiot.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Has Tim Witherspoon been mentioned? He definitely had the making for greatness.

[Rusty Tromboni]

If Whitaker means Pernell Whitaker, then you're an idiot.

Nah, bi tch. It's a well known fact that drug abuse brought his career to an untimely end.

There is no reason to believe he couldn't have won at least the Jr. Middleweight championship if he'd remained clean.

We lost a few marvelous years.

[just the facts]

Nah, bi tch. It's a well known fact that drug abuse brought his career to an untimely end.

There is no reason to believe he couldn't have won at least the Jr. Middleweight championship if he'd remained clean.

We lost a few marvelous years.

Hey idiot, Whitaker did win a belt at Jr. Middle.

Atg, first ballot HOFer, four weight world champion that wasn't clearly beaten until his 42nd fight when he was 35 = disappointment? As noted, you're an idiot.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Hey idiot, Whitaker did win a belt at Jr. Middle.

Atg, first ballot HOFer, four weight world champion that wasn't clearly beaten until his 42nd fight when he was 35 = disappointment? As noted, you're an idiot.

A belt is a title ku nt

He clearly could've unified. And maybe even made waves at 160.

You're the first person EVER to suggest drugs didn't derail his career.

And that seeing him conclude his career prematurely wasn't disappointing.

THOSE are just the facts.

[just the facts]

A belt is a title ku nt

He clearly could've unified. And maybe even made waves at 160.

You're the first person EVER to suggest drugs didn't derail his career.

And that seeing him conclude his career prematurely wasn't disappointing.

THOSE are just the facts.

Hey shytebag, when did I suggest drugs didn't have a negative effect on his career. I'm saying that anyone (in this case you) that thinks that a fighter who is an ATG, first ballot HOFer, four weight division champion, Olympic gold medalist, who wasn't clearly beaten until his 42nd fight when he was 35 yrs old career was a disappointment is an idiot. You obviously are and it is what it is......

[The Old LefHook]

Just look at the fur fly between alley cats! It is heartwarming. They may end up friends, one bringing steaks and the other wine.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Hey shytebag, when did I suggest drugs didn't have a negative effect on his career. I'm saying that anyone (in this case you) that thinks that a fighter who is an ATG, first ballot HOFer, four weight division champion, Olympic gold medalist, who wasn't clearly beaten until his 42nd fight when he was 35 yrs old career was a disappointment is an idiot. You obviously are and it is what it is......

So you admit i'm right. Cool.

If this is you're attempt at picking an argument Vitali would've been a better choice. Even Leonard, Conn and McGovern, who all saw their careers essentially completed before 25 accomplished more than Whitaker.