Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[travestyny]

- -Need to learn to communicate on English better. U failed U communique and thus fail in U quest to be a black revolutionary.

U obsession with the topic has rendered U as a turnip falling off the turnip truck.

Just stop. Your attempts to pick a fight with me are lame being that you are writing to me about New Mexico which isn't even a topic here.

I'm not sorry that you feel inadequate and want so badly to try to get me on something that you've made up your own irrelevant babble. Go take your meds.

[GhostofDempsey]

This makes no sense. There was only one black heavyweight champion. There was NEVER a rule that blacks would not be allowed to fight for the championship in New York. The commission outright stated that it was NOT because of his race (obviously a lie).

But here is definitive proof that you are wrong about exhibitions not being for the title.

But honestly it seems that I already convinced you of this, and now you are shifting yet again to something else and saying Jack Johnson should have known blacks couldn't fight for the championship? Dude. They had the same laws in Philly and New Jersey, from what I've seen.

If that doesn't convince you that you are wrong, I don't know what to say to you. It clearly states that this boxing EXHIBITION taking place at Madison Square Garden is for the title.

There was never a law that Black Fighters can't fight for the title. They didn't know what would happen until the commission met and made a decision, which was not about race (so they said) but more about Jack Johnson (true, but I do believe his race was a part of it.)


Is that not definitive proof that you are wrong? If not, what am I missing?



You keep saying there are so many sources, but I haven't seen the $30,000 offers. The ones we have seen, I've shown Jack Johnson accepting, a second one you mentioned was a misprint of the amount.

Just show the offers and we can discuss what happened. Give me the date, I'll do the research and come back with what I find. It's simple. I've already given two instances where he was offered fights with these 3 guys for the amount he wanted and he accepted.

Also showed McIntosh himself pulling his offer for Australia after Johnson ACCEPTED.

You insist on glossing over every source, citation, and quote I have provided. You have hinged your entire argument on an article that states the fight between Johnson and Jeannette was an exhibition. It was not for the title. Not in the article, not in any historical reference, and not sanctioned as such by the commission. You have referred to just about everyone and every source you disagree with as a lie.

No matter what I provide to support my position you will dismiss it and offer some article about another fighter (white fighters at that) in order to support your position. The two are unrelated. You are basically saying you don’t believe news sources, the actual fighter’s testimonies, promoters and managers who were there, heavily researched historical data and books written by scholars, historians and writers. There is nothing else I can do for you.

I highly recommend you download and read some of the books I have quoted. If for no other reason they are great historical reads for any fan of boxing history.

[travestyny]

You insist on glossing over every source, citation, and quote I have provided. You have hinged your entire argument on an article that states the fight between Johnson and Jeannette was an exhibition. It was not for the title. Not in the article, not in any historical reference, and not sanctioned as such by the commission. You have referred to just about everyone and every source you disagree with as a lie.

No, I haven't. What source have I said was a lie other than the one that I can prove was...I wouldn't say a lie, but a mistake regarding the money. If you have other information that has proof, I've been welcoming you to show it but you haven't.

and IT WAS FOR THE TITLE. I've shown you messages from the promoter saying they want to stage championship fights when referring to this fight. I've shown you words from Jack Johnson saying he is training hard so the title won't slip away. I've shown you quotations from the media saying it was for the Heavyweight title. I even showed you the New York Commission saying they WON'T allow the fight because it would be TOO MUCH LIKE A NON EXHIBITION CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT. And, hypocritically of them, I've shown you other fights in NY at this time under the same rules that were for the title, including Jess Williard defending his Heavyweight title in New York.

And you have rejected all of it, while it makes it CLEAR that this was exactly as I said. A title fight that could have the title change hands with a stoppage or knockout. Just as the other title fights that took place in NY at this time.

No matter what I provide to support my position you will dismiss it and offer some article about another fighter (white fighters at that) in order to support your position. The two are unrelated. You are basically saying you don’t believe news sources, the actual fighter’s testimonies, promoters and managers who were there, heavily researched historical data and books written by scholars, historians and writers. There is nothing else I can do for you.

I'm NOT saying that. I haven't seen the offers from you. I've said that repeatedly. The only thing I've said here is that I can point out specific times where he has accepted. I've asked you to point out the times where he has not accepted.

1. You pointed out a match to take place offered by the NSC. That was NOT for $30,000. Your source had the figure wrong. Your source claimed it was for 6000 pounds. Jack Johnsons quotation directly about it, and various other sources show that this was a misprint.

PROOF:

That's the offer that he said was ridiculous and you were asking how them giving him his price was ridiculous. It's because they did NOT give him his price.

2. You talked about McIntosh. I've shown his own words saying that the fight was off after Johnson accepted because of his Mann Act bust.

3. You also mentioned fights to take place in France, but I haven't seen any proof that it was for $30,000 and that the offers were legit/the details of what was going on at the time because you haven't given me any information on it.

I highly recommend you download and read some of the books I have quoted. If for no other reason they are great historical reads for any fan of boxing history.

I've read TONS of information on this because I find it interesting. Your evidence is mostly based on things like fighters' opinions. I've already proven Joe Jeannette was lying when he said Johnson drew the color line on him. That should tell you, NO, fighters opinions don't necessarily add up to the truth.

I've only asked for more details. I agreed with you about the $5000 contract. I also agree with you that there may very well be an offer out there that he refused, but I'd like to see if I can figure out why. I just don't know what those offers are.

I do disagree with you about that instance of the Jeannette fight. Through research and all of the documents that I've shared, it's rather clear that it was to be a title fight. To say now that Jack Johnson should have been aware of a double standard for blacks (which was to an even greater extent a double standard specifically for him) and to blame him for that instead of giving him credit for saying, "Hey, Joe Jeannette. I agree to give you your shot," is absolutely unfair.

You have absolutely no proof that it was not to be for the title, nor a reason to pin that on Johnson. Your claim was that it can't be for the title because it's an exhibition, and I've already proven that false 100%. Of course I didn't expect you to concede, though it's clear you should concede this point.

You have to admit, your position has shifted from "the fight was scrapped because Johnson wouldn't fight for the championship," to, "Johnson should have known they won't let anyone fight for the championship in NY," to, "Johnson should have known that only whites can fight for the championship in New York," and now back to, "It's an exhibition and not a title fight."

I've certainly shown all of that is false. Ask yourself if you are being unbiased here. What we have is Johnson agreeing to fight Jeannette, and you're saying it doesn't count because he couldn't look into the minds of racist who would eventually declare it can't happen.


If you want to share the offers that he passed up on, by all means do so. I think I've already shared enough at this point, and I think I made my point crystal clear.

[Willie Pep 229]

Here is a ten round MSG fight (that never occurred because it was replaced by a 15 round title fight in December of the same year,) with a similar caveat: unrecognized as a title-fight with a championship clause.

See the third paragraph.


Louis-Walcott I

[travestyny]

Here is a ten round MSG fight (that never occurred because it was replaced by a 15 round title fight in December of the same year,) with a similar caveat: unrecognized as a title-fight with a championship clause.

See the third paragraph.


Louis-Walcott I

Nice find! And seems very similar.

It's a little bit different in that this was the modern NYSAC I'm guessing, since the Frawley act was repealed in...I think 1920. So you were allowed to have decisions at this time. But otherwise it has the similar condition. The champion would have to lose by stoppage to lose the title.

I don't like it but I understand why it came up under the Frawley Act. They didn't want anyone ******** on boxing, so they decided there wouldn't be any decisions. So the only way to "lose" would be by stoppage.

The funny part is that it didn't deter ********, because people just waited for the Newspaper decisions the next day.

[QueensburyRules]

Just stop. Your attempts to pick a fight with me are lame being that you are writing to me about New Mexico which isn't even a topic here.

I'm not sorry that you feel inadequate and want so badly to try to get me on something that you've made up your own irrelevant babble. Go take your meds.

- -Low hanging fruit like U easy pickins'.

JJ defended vs Flynn in New Mexico despite U majic unicorn evidence otherwise.

Yup!

[Willie Pep 229]

The New Mexico fight is also important because it was the cause/motivation of/for enactment of the Sims Act, (prohibition against the transportation of films across State borders; enacted July 31st, 1912).

Early on (that year) several 'white' newspapers had chided Johnson about his inability to find a venue for his defense and that he landed in the sparsely populated (brand new) State of New Mexico. The talk in the South was all about how they would 'starve the Negro out of the championship.'

Johnson replied to the taunts through the Negro papers, stating defiantly that NM didn't matter that he would make ten times as much off the fight film.

It was this Johnson retort that motivated Rep. Sims (Tennessee) and Rep. Roddenbury (Georgia) to push for the anti-fight pictures prohibition.

Roddenbury led the charge for the Southern Blue Dogs (who were boasting that they were 'shutting off every revenue stream available to the Negro') while Sims worked the northern Progressive ********, who viewed prize fighting as an obscenity; often pointing to the possible return of 1910 violence if action wasn't taken.

Two years earlier in 1910 the Smith Bill, which tried to paint prize fighting as por*ography had failed, (mainly blocked, ironically by the Southern Blue Dogs and Uncle Joe Cannon of MI) but now in 1912 with the Blue Dogs on board with the progressive reformers, (with very different motives) the combination was able to push the bill through Congress.

[GhostofDempsey]

No, I haven't. What source have I said was a lie other than the one that I can prove was...I wouldn't say a lie, but a mistake regarding the money. If you have other information that has proof, I've been welcoming you to show it but you haven't.

and IT WAS FOR THE TITLE. I've shown you messages from the promoter saying they want to stage championship fights when referring to this fight. I've shown you words from Jack Johnson saying he is training hard so the title won't slip away. I've shown you quotations from the media saying it was for the Heavyweight title. I even showed you the New York Commission saying they WON'T allow the fight because it would be TOO MUCH LIKE A NON EXHIBITION CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT. And, hypocritically of them, I've shown you other fights in NY at this time under the same rules that were for the title, including Jess Williard defending his Heavyweight title in New York.

And you have rejected all of it, while it makes it CLEAR that this was exactly as I said. A title fight that could have the title change hands with a stoppage or knockout. Just as the other title fights that took place in NY at this time.




I'm NOT saying that. I haven't seen the offers from you. I've said that repeatedly. The only thing I've said here is that I can point out specific times where he has accepted. I've asked you to point out the times where he has not accepted.

1. You pointed out a match to take place offered by the NSC. That was NOT for $30,000. Your source had the figure wrong. Your source claimed it was for 6000 pounds. Jack Johnsons quotation directly about it, and various other sources show that this was a misprint.

PROOF:

That's the offer that he said was ridiculous and you were asking how them giving him his price was ridiculous. It's because they did NOT give him his price.

2. You talked about McIntosh. I've shown his own words saying that the fight was off after Johnson accepted because of his Mann Act bust.

3. You also mentioned fights to take place in France, but I haven't seen any proof that it was for $30,000 and that the offers were legit/the details of what was going on at the time because you haven't given me any information on it.



I've read TONS of information on this because I find it interesting. Your evidence is mostly based on things like fighters' opinions. I've already proven Joe Jeannette was lying when he said Johnson drew the color line on him. That should tell you, NO, fighters opinions don't necessarily add up to the truth.

I've only asked for more details. I agreed with you about the $5000 contract. I also agree with you that there may very well be an offer out there that he refused, but I'd like to see if I can figure out why. I just don't know what those offers are.

I do disagree with you about that instance of the Jeannette fight. Through research and all of the documents that I've shared, it's rather clear that it was to be a title fight. To say now that Jack Johnson should have been aware of a double standard for blacks (which was to an even greater extent a double standard specifically for him) and to blame him for that instead of giving him credit for saying, "Hey, Joe Jeannette. I agree to give you your shot," is absolutely unfair.

You have absolutely no proof that it was not to be for the title, nor a reason to pin that on Johnson. Your claim was that it can't be for the title because it's an exhibition, and I've already proven that false 100%. Of course I didn't expect you to concede, though it's clear you should concede this point.

You have to admit, your position has shifted from "the fight was scrapped because Johnson wouldn't fight for the championship," to, "Johnson should have known they won't let anyone fight for the championship in NY," to, "Johnson should have known that only whites can fight for the championship in New York," and now back to, "It's an exhibition and not a title fight."

I've certainly shown all of that is false. Ask yourself if you are being unbiased here. What we have is Johnson agreeing to fight Jeannette, and you're saying it doesn't count because he couldn't look into the minds of racist who would eventually declare it can't happen.


If you want to share the offers that he passed up on, by all means do so. I think I've already shared enough at this point, and I think I made my point crystal clear.

You posted ten paragraphs that prove nothing. You cannot prove it was a title fight because it wasn’t. You are grabbing at straws trying to disprove one claim by offering totally unrelated examples from other obscure fights. You have not proven me wrong about anything nor have you proven yourself right about the bottom line of this discussion.

My position hasn’t shifted at all, all of these explanations are viable. You have repeatedly ignored every source, particularly that of historians and scholars. You assume you are right and they are wrong based solely upon a couple of newspapers articles that were vague and non-specific regarding title and exhibition fights. It is universally accepted that Johnson did not offer any of the four black fighters we discussed a title shot.

No amount of conjecture will convince me the Johnson/Jeannette fight was for a title. You can continue to spin your wheels and offer unrelated documentation to push your theory across the goal line. For whatever reason you cannot accept a difference in opinion or that someone else may be right.

[GhostofDempsey]

Making matters worse, during his reign as heavyweight champion Johnson himself—with one exception—refused to fight men of his own race. Publicly, he claimed that a match between two black men wouldn’t draw well. Privately, Johnson admitted that there were plenty of other, easier “white hopes” .

[GhostofDempsey]

In his 1910 French biography, Mes Combats, Johnson wrote of his fight with Sam: I found him one of the toughest adversaries I ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 pounds and Langford only 138. In the second round the little Negro hit me on the jaw with a terrible right hand and I fell as if upended by a cannon ball. In all my pugilistic career, not before and not afterwards, have I received a blow that struck me with such force. It was all I could do just to get back on my feet just as the referee was about to count “Ten!” I made it, but I assure you that I felt the effects of that punch for the rest of the fight. I recovered, but I would have to take my hat off to him if I hadn’t had so much science at my command. In the fifteenth round I was declared the winner on points.