Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[travestyny]

None of this connects the dots for me. Johnson’s fight was billed as an exhibition, it was not to be a title fight. Even if it were, based on what you provided, he would have known full well he could not fight Jeannette for the title in NY. If he really wanted to grant him a title fight it would have taken place elsewhere, even outside the country. Once he fled America in 1912 he received several generous offers to fight any one of the black fighters he avoided, and he declined all of them.

I'm not convinced it wasn't for the title. There are various quotations from the media, Jack Johnson, and the promotors even about staging championship fights and specifically about this fight being for the title. Johnson was presented with an offer to fight Joe Jeannette and he took it. Trying to hold his feet to the fire over NY's laws would certainly be unfair. No other champion who fought in NY would receive the same treatment, would they? Mind you. This was the case in New York from 1909 to 1920, I think it said. Are you really going to claim that champions that fought in NY during these times were not truly defending their titles? That would certainly cause the history of boxing champions to change! The same might even be true for Philly since I've seen title fights listed for their No Decision exhibitions.

Just to be clear, I've shown clear evidence that the exhibition matches that took place in NY could indeed be title fights. I think that should be acknowledged! I've also shown that this fight was at least considered a title fight, which ironic enough was the very reason used by the commission to disallow it.

Jack Johnson accepted when he got $30,000, as he claimed. Accepted Jeannette, Langford, and McVea. I've certainly shown evidence of that. I haven't seen any of these $30,000 offers from you. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I would like to see the evidence and what else was going on around the event to understand what happened. With respect to one of the offers you mentioned, the amount given was incorrect (and I can prove it/think I've shown that already). As for the other one, I haven't seen any details of it. I've already agreed that he broke the contract for $5000.

[QueensburyRules]

What does that have to do with New York?

- -get U minder to Chang U BigBoy trainers.

U used NM as part of U expectorated missives about how the commissions were drawing the color line.

Remember when U drew the color line against me to freeze me out of U el******o Dempsey thread and then came begging for me to return?

I don't make shhh and U up, it happens!

[travestyny]

- -get U minder to Chang U BigBoy trainers.

U used NM as part of U expectorated missives about how the commissions were drawing the color line.

Remember when U drew the color line against me to freeze me out of U el******o Dempsey thread and then came begging for me to return?

I don't make shhh and U up, it happens!

Uh, no I didn't. I didn't use NM as a part of anything except the name of a book, dumbo.


Go back, learn to read, then learn how to write. Then come back and maybe ask me to explain it to you nicely if you still can't understand.

[QueensburyRules]

By the way. FALSE!!!!!!


They didn't want to allow Jack Johnson to fight there period, and they first said it was to block mixed race heavy title bouts, and later applied it to any of his bouts because it would still be like a championship bout to the public. Looks like your quote just "blew up in your face."


It's not because it wasn't a championship fight. THE COMMISSION IS THE REASON IT WASN'T A CHAMPIONSHIP FIGHT.

Proof:

From the book "Boxing in New Mexico," where the show the commissioner not allowing Jack Johnson to fight Flynn there.

"A black heavyweight champion was a completely different matter"




And a part of the article I shared before that states exactly what I said. Jack Johnson was barred from fighting there, but thought of being barred from fighting whites. It was only later that they barred him altogether and said the reason wasn't about race, but about championship boxing, and it would still be considered a championship fight by the public.
:

- -U never say what grade U in. They no teach U about New Mexico?

[GhostofDempsey]

I'm not convinced it wasn't for the title. There are various quotations from the media, Jack Johnson, and the promotors even about staging championship fights and specifically about this fight being for the title. Johnson was presented with an offer to fight Joe Jeannette and he took it. Trying to hold his feet to the fire over NY's laws would certainly be unfair. No other champion who fought in NY would receive the same treatment, would they? Mind you. This was the case in New York from 1909 to 1920, I think it said. Are you really going to claim that champions that fought in NY during these times were not truly defending their titles? That would certainly cause the history of boxing champions to change! The same might even be true for Philly since I've seen title fights listed for their No Decision exhibitions.

Just to be clear, I've shown clear evidence that the exhibition matches that took place in NY could indeed be title fights. I think that should be acknowledged! I've also shown that this fight was at least considered a title fight, which ironic enough was the very reason used by the commission to disallow it.

Jack Johnson accepted when he got $30,000, as he claimed. Accepted Jeannette, Langford, and McVea. I've certainly shown evidence of that. I haven't seen any of these $30,000 offers from you. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I would like to see the evidence and what else was going on around the event to understand what happened. With respect to one of the offers you mentioned, the amount given was incorrect (and I can prove it/think I've shown that already). As for the other one, I haven't seen any details of it. I've already agreed that he broke the contract for $5000.

I have already posted sources of the multiple offers made to Johnson. Exhibition fights may have been title fights for white fighters in NY but not black ones, and certainly not Johnson and Jeannette. There are too many sources that support my position, which for me is sufficient evidence he drew the color line as champion and refused to grant them title fights. I have provided names, quotes, sources, and book titles that have been thoroughly researched that all make the claim he refused to give them title shots. The fighters and promoters themselves collectively agree they weren’t given title shots to fight him. Mike Silver, Kevin Smith, Gerald Early, Bert Sugar, Colleen Ay****, Mark Scott, Ben Howe’s, Tracy Callie, Clay Moyle and several others, all noted boxing historians and scholars have provided this insight.

Hugh McIntosh told his version of Johnson’s reluctance to the NYT:

Despite that, I will always say this for Langford, he is far and away the best heavyweight in the world now. I have tried time and again to get Jack Johnson to meet Langford but Jack would never accept terms or sign for a meeting with the little black fellow. When I would get Johnson near the point of a match with Langford he would stall me off with some excuse. Finally I made things so hot for Johnson that he admitted to me that Langford was too tough a game to tackle, and he passed the little fellow up. A match between Langford and Johnson would have drawn no end of money in Australia. A good man can make a lot of money in my country, and had Johnson boxed Langford in Australia he could easily have carried off $50,000 for his end.”

Johnson was not afraid of a hiding, but he did not want to risk his title. I spent months trying to persuade Johnson to agree to a match with Langford, but he obstinately refused and one day he frankly told me the reason. ‘Say, Mister Mac,’ he drawled, ‘you’re only wasting your time talking to me. I don’t want to fight that little smoke. He’s got a chance against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.” [5]

-Sam Langford: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion

We have reached that juncture where no amount of what I provide is going to convince you. How many times are we going to go back and forth?

[travestyny]

I have already posted sources of the multiple offers made to Johnson. Exhibition fights may have been title fights for white fighters in NY but not black ones, and certainly not Johnson and Jeannette.

This makes no sense. There was only one black heavyweight champion. There was NEVER a rule that blacks would not be allowed to fight for the championship in New York. The commission outright stated that it was NOT because of his race (obviously a lie).

But here is definitive proof that you are wrong about exhibitions not being for the title.

JESS NOT LIKELY TO LOSE HIS TITLE
Bout with Moran Will Be But Ten Rounds and Champ Can Only Lose by Knockout.
LITTLE CHANCE FOR THAT

NEW YORK. Jan. 2I. - The proposed bout between Wlllard and Frank Moran is of unusual Interest In that It brings to bear upon the heavyweight title several angles which are unusual In ring contests where this title has been Involved. Under the law of the state of New York the boxers will meet in what Is termed a ten-round sparring exhibition without decision and If both men are on their feet at the expiration of thirty minutes of boxing future ring records will carry the bout as a no-decision contest. Consequently the only way In which the heavyweight championship could pass from Wlllard, the holder, to Moran would be for the latter to knock out his opponent or win on a foul so deliberate that there could be no question as to Its Intent.

But honestly it seems that I already convinced you of this, and now you are shifting yet again to something else and saying Jack Johnson should have known blacks couldn't fight for the championship? Dude. They had the same laws in Philly and New Jersey, from what I've seen.

If that doesn't convince you that you are wrong, I don't know what to say to you. It clearly states that this boxing EXHIBITION taking place at Madison Square Garden is for the title.

There was never a law that Black Fighters can't fight for the title. They didn't know what would happen until the commission met and made a decision, which was not about race (so they said) but more about Jack Johnson (true, but I do believe his race was a part of it.)


Is that not definitive proof that you are wrong? If not, what am I missing?

There are too many sources that support my position, which for me is sufficient evidence he drew the color line as champion and refused to grant them title fights. I have provided names, quotes, sources, and book titles that have been thoroughly researched that all make the claim he refused to give them title shots. The fighters and promoters themselves collectively agree they weren’t given title shots to fight him. Mike Silver, Kevin Smith, Gerald Early, Bert Sugar, Colleen Ay****, Mark Scott, Ben Howe’s, Tracy Callie, Clay Moyle and several others, all noted boxing historians and scholars have provided this insight.

Hugh McIntosh told his version of Johnson’s reluctance to the NYT:

Despite that, I will always say this for Langford, he is far and away the best heavyweight in the world now. I have tried time and again to get Jack Johnson to meet Langford but Jack would never accept terms or sign for a meeting with the little black fellow. When I would get Johnson near the point of a match with Langford he would stall me off with some excuse. Finally I made things so hot for Johnson that he admitted to me that Langford was too tough a game to tackle, and he passed the little fellow up. A match between Langford and Johnson would have drawn no end of money in Australia. A good man can make a lot of money in my country, and had Johnson boxed Langford in Australia he could easily have carried off $50,000 for his end.”

Johnson was not afraid of a hiding, but he did not want to risk his title. I spent months trying to persuade Johnson to agree to a match with Langford, but he obstinately refused and one day he frankly told me the reason. ‘Say, Mister Mac,’ he drawled, ‘you’re only wasting your time talking to me. I don’t want to fight that little smoke. He’s got a chance against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.” [5]

-Sam Langford: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion

We have reached that juncture where no amount of what I provide is going to convince you. How many times are we going to go back and forth?

You keep saying there are so many sources, but I haven't seen the $30,000 offers. The ones we have seen, I've shown Jack Johnson accepting, a second one you mentioned was a misprint of the amount.

Just show the offers and we can discuss what happened. Give me the date, I'll do the research and come back with what I find. It's simple. I've already given two instances where he was offered fights with these 3 guys for the amount he wanted and he accepted.

Also showed McIntosh himself pulling his offer for Australia after Johnson ACCEPTED.

[travestyny]

- -U never say what grade U in. They no teach U about New Mexico?

Again, what does this have to do with New York?


"Boxing in New Mexicio" is the name of the book that gives the quotation that I wanted to show. A quotation....ABOUT NEW YORK.


Just because the title of the book has "New Mexico" in it doesn't mean that it can only discuss New Mexico, dummy.

--What grade U in?

[QueensburyRules]

Again, what does this have to do with New York?


"Boxing in New Mexicio" is the name of the book that gives the quotation that I wanted to show. A quotation....ABOUT NEW YORK.


Just because the title of the book has "New Mexico" in it doesn't mean that it can only discuss New Mexico, dummy.

--What grade U in?

- -Need to learn to communicate on English better. U failed U communique and thus fail in U quest to be a black revolutionary.

U obsession with the topic has rendered U as a turnip falling off the turnip truck.

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Need to learn to communicate on English better.

Oh dear. The irony.

[EDDIE SPERM]

Interesting