Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[travestyny]

The following Harry Wills quote is an excerpt from pages 360-361 of Joe Botti's book about Joe Jennette:

"Jack Johnson was the meanest of the lot. Jack was a smart fellow in many ways, but in others he showed no sense at all. He got so stuck on himself he had the idea everyone should fall down and worship him. Johnson always wanted to show off. He wanted to attract attention all the time, and he didn't care much how he did it. As long as he made people talk about him he was happy, and he never stopped to think that he was doing himself more harm than good.

"If you were a young fellow trying to get along, Johnson would not show you anything. He would rather show you up instead. Take the way he treated me when we were training to fight Jim Flynn in Las Vegas. I was a young fellow then who didn't know much, but anxious to get somewhere.

"Jack Curley, who was promoting the match and looking after Johnson, offered me a job as sparring partner. I was glad to take it because I needed the money and thought I might learn something from the champion. There was a big crowd looking on the day we put on the gloves. From the start, Johnson tried to make me look silly so he could laugh at me in front of the crowd. Remember, at this time, although I was broke, I had something of a reputation, earned through hard fighting , and a boxer's reputation is his only asset.

"Anyone but Johnson would have thought of that and acted accordingly. All Johnson
could think of was his desire to make me look foolish."

"Of course I expected to be hit and hit hard. I would not have minded that, for I was strong and tough, and it is all in the game. But when Johnson stopped straight boxing and tried to make me look bad, I got kind of sore. Johnson was very proud of his strength. He thought there was no one in the ring his equal in that respect or in any other, for that matter. One of his favorite tricks was to grab your arms, waltz you around and laugh, and then suddenly let you go and uppercut you.

"Well, after he tried that on me a few times, laughing and kidding with the crowd at my expense, I decided I'd see which was the stronger of the two. The next time he grabbed my arms to shove them back, I set myself and threw him across the ring. That wiped the grin off his face in a hurry, for the crowd began to laugh at him instead of with him, something that makes a big difference to these babies who like to show off. Having lost his goat, Johnson began to slug. That was playing right into my hands, for I was tougher and a harder hitter. After mixxing it for a few moments he began to get the worst of it so he clinched and held on, meanwhile trying to laugh it off.

"That was the only time I boxed with Johnson. He told Curley to pay me off and let me go. He didn't want anyone in his camp he could not handle as he pleased. That incident is typical of Johnson's whole career. He never cared how he hurt other peoples' feelings as long as he could make himself look big. Showing off was the cause of all his troubles. At the same time I would like to say right here that if Johnson did not act right when he won the title he was made to pay dearly. Although he could have avoided the trouble that came his way, he was not treated fairly either. I think that all intelligent persons will agree with me that neither Johnson nor the people that undertook to run him out of boxing have any reason to be proud of the way they acted."
From The Baltimore Afro-American. June 13, 1931. Page 14.

By the way, thanks for this! Was really good to read this in his words. But is anyone surprised? lol. That's obviously who Jack Johnson was!

[GhostofDempsey]

And besides what was already shown about Langford and McVea, you also can't ignore that he signed to fight Jeannette and the fight was scrapped by the commission. This is documented and I know I've shown it to you before, so I'm not sure why you keep on this way.

Johnson might have “agreed” to those fights knowing full well they would either never get made or he could again just back out. They weren’t contracts that he signed. But I am seeing a double standard here where Tunney signed a proposal to fight Wills, but it was dismissed by some members here as a publicity stunt.

In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

[travestyny]

Johnson might have “agreed” to those fights knowing full well they would either never get made or he could again just back out. They weren’t contracts that he signed. But I am seeing a double standard here where Tunney signed a proposal to fight Wills, but it was dismissed by some members here as a publicity stunt.

I'm confused about how you see the promoters backing out on Jack Johnson in one instance, and the commission backing out on him in another instance, and you're saying he somehow knew the fights wouldn't get made. Did Jack Johnson control the promoters and the commission?


There is no double standard. I never claimed anything was a publicity stunt, so you would have to take that up with whomever you are talking about. I said Dempsey signed a contract and then broke the contract and backed out. It's really very simple. One of the big differences being Dempsey was offered MORE money for Wills than he was for Tunney.

In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

Ok. Well if you believe all of that, why haven't you believed what Shoulder Roll and I have shown you? ShoulderRoll showed you above, and I know I've shown you it before. Clearly, the commission backed out on him with regards to Jeannette and the promoters (McIntosh, whom you mentioned above) backed out on him with regards to Langford/McVea but you are conveniently stating he knew the fights wouldn't happen. From the string of articles I posted about Jeannette, it seems clear he didn't know if the fight would come off or not.


I was looking for your information regarding the first tidbit but all I can find is that you've posted this from another forum. Nothing wrong with that, being that your OP was from the same forum with Clay Moyle, whom I consider a respectable historian. However, you can see that everything posted was refuted, such as one poster claiming that the first offer was without expenses being paid, and gave a retort including this:

" I don't see that the National Sporting Club has the right to dictate to me as to how much I shall receive for my appearance ,and boxing ability.If they don't want to give my price,[ which is thirty thousand dollars,] win , lose, or draw, they can call things off.I am a boxing man and can now get my price, and I dont care what the public thinks."

And this:
"Here is a cable dated Feb 9th 1914 ,presented ,and published in the newspaper The Argus. The National Sporting Club offers Jack Johnson £3000 to defend his title against Sam Langford in London , the purse to be split 60/40.No film rights to either boxer .
Johnson was getting ready to defend against Moran ,he stated in print he would fight Langford for £6000. ."


Which would suggest the money was wrong, but I can't see the cable that was posted. I'm guessing the forum is now defunct?

[QueensburyRules]

- -10 Dolla Dolly in da house!

[GhostofDempsey]

I'm confused about how you see the promoters backing out on Jack Johnson in one instance, and the commission backing out on him in another instance, and you're saying he somehow knew the fights wouldn't get made. Did Jack Johnson control the promoters and the commission?


There is no double standard. I never claimed anything was a publicity stunt, so you would have to take that up with whomever you are talking about. I said Dempsey signed a contract and then broke the contract and backed out. It's really very simple. One of the big differences being Dempsey was offered MORE money for Wills than he was for Tunney.




Ok. Well if you believe all of that, why haven't you believed what Shoulder Roll and I have shown you? ShoulderRoll showed you above, and I know I've shown you it before. Clearly, the commission backed out on him with regards to Jeannette and the promoters (McIntosh, whom you mentioned above) backed out on him with regards to Langford/McVea but you are conveniently stating he knew the fights wouldn't happen. From the string of articles I posted about Jeannette, it seems clear he didn't know if the fight would come off or not.


I was looking for your information regarding the first tidbit but all I can find is that you've posted this from another forum. Nothing wrong with that, being that your OP was from the same forum with Clay Moyle, whom I consider a respectable historian. However, you can see that everything posted was refuted, such as one poster claiming that the first offer was without expenses being paid, and gave a retort including this:

" I don't see that the National Sporting Club has the right to dictate to me as to how much I shall receive for my appearance ,and boxing ability.If they don't want to give my price,[ which is thirty thousand dollars,] win , lose, or draw, they can call things off.I am a boxing man and can now get my price, and I dont care what the public thinks."

And this:
"Here is a cable dated Feb 9th 1914 ,presented ,and published in the newspaper The Argus. The National Sporting Club offers Jack Johnson £3000 to defend his title against Sam Langford in London , the purse to be split 60/40.No film rights to either boxer .
Johnson was getting ready to defend against Moran ,he stated in print he would fight Langford for £6000. ."


Which would suggest the money was wrong, but I can't see the cable that was posted. I'm guessing the forum is now defunct?

Johnson later reneged an any offer to fight for anything less than $30K, that was his going rate and he would not budge from it. All those offers and words meant nothing, he had already reneged on a written agreement to fight Langford in London. How is he going to demand $30K (£6000) to fight Langford on 9 Feb, and then say the offer is ridiculous on 12 Feb?

The Mann Act prevented him from getting fights in the U.S. Not overseas. Johnson was living overseas as a fugitive while fighting in Europe and Australia. He had been offered $30K and more on several occasions to fight Langford, McVea, Jeannette, he turned them all down. Partly because he knew he could earn more against smaller white fighters who were basically no-hopers. Also because he knew these black fighters had improved since he had initially fought them while they were less experienced.

You can't call Dempsey a duck while defending Johnson in the same breath. If the money wasn't right for Johnson, it certainly wasn't right after three tries for Dempsey and never coming through with the money in hand.

Like I said, some of you thought Tunny signing an agreement to fight Wills was just a publicity stunt, but you give Johnson credit for agreeing to fights that he had already stated would have to pay him $30K. He had already proven he was untrustworthy, and this is in the history books.

[travestyny]

Johnson later reneged an any offer to fight for anything less than $30K, that was his going rate and he would not budge from it. All those offers and words meant nothing, he had already reneged on a written agreement to fight Langford in London. How is he going to demand $30K (£6000) to fight Langford on 9 Feb, and then say the offer is ridiculous on 12 Feb?

I addressed this. I don't know the details on what he found ridiculous. Did he have to pay some of the expenses like the guy in that thread was saying?

Is the amount off like the guy in that thread was saying?

We need more information.

The Mann Act prevented him from getting fights in the U.S. Not overseas. Johnson was living overseas as a fugitive while fighting in Europe and Australia. He had been offered $30K and more on several occasions to fight Langford, McVea, Jeannette, he turned them all down. Partly because he knew he could earn more against smaller white fighters who were basically no-hopers. Also because he knew these black fighters had improved since he had initially fought them while they were less experienced.

Bruv. The fights that he accepted for McVea and Langford were to take place in Australia. The promoter said his bust for the Mann Act made the fights no longer attractive and he pulled the plug. This has already been documented here.

As for Jeannette, clearly the commission pulled the plug on the fight. Yet you are still going saying he avoided him. Johnson has no control over the NY commission. You have to admit that you are not discussing this in good faith if you are just blatantly going to pretend I haven't given you this information.

You can't call Dempsey a duck while defending Johnson in the same breath. If the money wasn't right for Johnson, it certainly wasn't right after three tries for Dempsey and never coming through with the money in hand.

That's false. What you showed here is Johnson turning down $5000 and demanding $30,000

What we know about the Dempsey deal is he turned down MORE MONEY for Wills to face Tunney. Whenver we talk about things, it's like you blatantly ignore things that have been said over and over again. I'm not sure why you do this.

Like I said, some of you thought Tunny signing an agreement to fight Wills was just a publicity stunt, but you give Johnson credit for agreeing to fights that he had already stated would have to pay him $30K. He had already proven he was untrustworthy, and this is in the history books.

You never gave any information on this $30,000 deal. You just took the information from another board where it was also refuted, but you didn't mention anything about it being refuted there. You can't just cherry pick what you want and leave out the rest.

[travestyny]

How is he going to demand $30K (£6000) to fight Langford on 9 Feb, and then say the offer is ridiculous on 12 Feb?

Found it. Seems like the guy on that board was right. It wasn't for $30,000.


Here is the statement where he says it was a ridiculous offer, and he explains why. Also, it shows the amount was wrong.

[GhostofDempsey]

I addressed this. I don't know the details on what he found ridiculous. Did he have to pay some of the expenses like the guy in that thread was saying?

Is the amount off like the guy in that thread was saying?

We need more information.




Bruv. The fights that he accepted for McVea and Langford were to take place in Australia. The promoter said his bust for the Mann Act made the fights no longer attractive and he pulled the plug. This has already been documented here.

As for Jeannette, clearly the commission pulled the plug on the fight. Yet you are still going saying he avoided him. Johnson has no control over the NY commission. You have to admit that you are not discussing this in good faith if you are just blatantly going to pretend I haven't given you this information.



That's false. What you showed here is Johnson turning down $5000 and demanding $30,000

What we know about the Dempsey deal is he turned down MORE MONEY for Wills to face Tunney. Whenver we talk about things, it's like you blatantly ignore things that have been said over and over again. I'm not sure why you do this.



You never gave any information on this $30,000 deal. You just took the information from another board where it was also refuted, but you didn't mention anything about it being refuted there. You can't just cherry pick what you want and leave out the rest.

My info isn't just from other boards. I've provided sources from newspapers that show date/month/year they were published and the offers made to Johnson that he balked at. Langford himself said that he was never involved in any serious discussions about a rematch after Johnson pulled out of the 1909 rematch he signed and agreed to. Was Langford lying?

You're still deflecting and making excuses for Johnson reneging on a signed agreement to rematch Langford in London. That happened! It was a duck! Just because he felt he deserved more money doesn't absolve him from breaking a written agreement.

Found it. Seems like the guy on that board was right. It wasn't for $30,000.


Here is the statement where he says it was a ridiculous offer, and he explains why. Also, it shows the amount was wrong.

You are taking one person's word over another and cherry picking your own sources. Johnson never had any intention of rematching Langford, Jeannette or McVea and they all have gone on record as claiming such. Wills himself said Johnson wanted no part of him. You are quick to believe anything that may seem to favor Johnson, but discredit Langford. I can't imagine why, Langford was a far better fighter. Johnson got all the glory for being the first black HW champion, but certainly wasn't the best black fighter of his era. Not that McVea or Jeannette were "great" but he fought them early on when they were starting out. In their last fight, Jeannette fought to a draw with Johnson. If Johnson could make fights with Moran and Murray in Paris and elsewhere overseas, he could have made deals with Langford, Jeannette and McVea.

"When Jack became the champion he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against his own people. " - Joe Jeannette. So was Jeannette lying? He was there, and he would have been a more credible source than newspaper writers of the day looking to latch onto a story that wasn't there.

[travestyny]

My info isn't just from other boards. I've provided sources from newspapers that show date/month/year they were published and the offers made to Johnson that he balked at. Langford himself said that he was never involved in any serious discussions about a rematch after Johnson pulled out of the 1909 rematch he signed and agreed to. Was Langford lying?

Show us the newspaper article then so we can have a good look at what you're saying.

The text I gave you has an exact quotation from Jack Johnson saying that his price is $30,000, responding directly about Lanford.

So isn't that proof enough that he wasn't offered $30,000 for Langford at that time?

As to whether Langford is lying, you have to show us exactly what he said and when he said it for us to know that. Obviously we've shown you that the promoter dropped the bout after JJohnson was got on the Mann act. Is the promoter lying????? lol.

You're still deflecting and making excuses for Johnson reneging on a signed agreement to rematch Langford in London. That happened! It was a duck! Just because he felt he deserved more money doesn't absolve him from breaking a written agreement.

Deflecting? How have I deflected anything. You are very welcome to call it a duck if you'd like. The point that I've made is that it's much ado about nothing when you're pointing out that he dodged out on a contract for $5000 because he wanted to be paid like a champion. When the fight was offered at what he deserved, he accepted, and the fight was pulled. It's not my fault if that makes you upset. It's already been shown here, and I don't know why that bothers you so much. If it's your opinion that he ducked him for the $5,000, you are welcome to it! I'm not trying to convince you otherwise!

You are taking one person's word over another and cherry picking your own sources. Johnson never had any intention of rematching Langford, Jeannette or McVea and they all have gone on record as claiming such. Wills himself said Johnson wanted no part of him. You are quick to believe anything that may seem to favor Johnson, but discredit Langford. I can't imagine why, Langford was a far better fighter. Johnson got all the glory for being the first black HW champion, but certainly wasn't the best black fighter of his era. Not that McVea or Jeannette were "great" but he fought them early on when they were starting out. In their last fight, Jeannette fought to a draw with Johnson. If Johnson could make fights with Moran and Murray in Paris and elsewhere overseas, he could have made deals with Langford, Jeannette and McVea.

"When Jack became the champion he forgot about his old friends and drew the color line against his own people. " - Joe Jeannette. So was Jeannette lying? He was there, and he would have been a more credible source than newspaper writers of the day looking to latch onto a story that wasn't there.

LMAO. You are far too emotional and projecting your emotion on me. I have never stated to you or anyone else that I favor Jack Johnson more than any other fighter. Perhaps it's because I have his picture below that you think that? lol. I just thought it was a cool picture. I liked the colors. I liked the documentary "Unforgiveable Blackness." That's pretty much all there is to it. I like Langford just as much, or even more. And I especially love Joe Jeannette and Sam McVea. Jeanatte because of that wild story with Jack Dempsey. McVea because of his wild time fighting a professional wrestler or Karate expert or whatever the guy was supposed to be when they said he would get murdered and the guy turned out to be a fraud. Langford the giant killer.

If you want to be honest, let's be honest. You want to go in on Jack Johnson because you believe I'm unfair to Jack Dempsey, and you believe I hold Jack Johnson higher than those other guys.

First of all, I don't hold Jack Johnson above those other guys.

Next, I've never been unfair to Jack Dempsey. I've told it like it is.

Third, I've never been untruthful about Jack Johnson. I said on page one I believe he broke this contract. Also said I believe he should have honored it. Also said you can blame him for Langford not getting a shot, depending on what instance of the fight you are looking at.

Again, I haven't contested anything you've said here, except you now claiming that offer was for $30,000 when Jack Johnsons quotation makes it clear it wasn't.

On the other hand, you keep denying obvious evidence. So I want you to tell me just one thing.


Did the commission not pull this fight between Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette? Yes or no?



If we get to the bottom of this, then I can tell you if Joe Jeannette is lying. Because to insist that a newspaper would completely make up something unfolding like this...over days, and apparently in cahoots with Jack Johnson, who gave an outlandish quotation about a fight that didn't exist...just made up all out of thin air. That would be certainly something I'd love to know more about! So if you can explain that, I'm all ears!

[GhostofDempsey]

Show us the newspaper article then so we can have a good look at what you're saying.

The text I gave you has an exact quotation from Jack Johnson saying that his price is $30,000, responding directly about Lanford.

So isn't that proof enough that he wasn't offered $30,000 for Langford at that time?

As to whether Langford is lying, you have to show us exactly what he said and when he said it for us to know that. Obviously we've shown you that the promoter dropped the bout after JJohnson was got on the Mann act. Is the promoter lying????? lol.







Deflecting? How have I deflected anything. You are very welcome to call it a duck if you'd like. The point that I've made is that it's much ado about nothing when you're pointing out that he dodged out on a contract for $5000 because he wanted to be paid like a champion. When the fight was offered at what he deserved, he accepted, and the fight was pulled. It's not my fault if that makes you upset. It's already been shown here, and I don't know why that bothers you so much. If it's your opinion that he ducked him for the $5,000, you are welcome to it! I'm not trying to convince you otherwise!




LMAO. You are far too emotional and projecting your emotion on me. I have never stated to you or anyone else that I favor Jack Johnson more than any other fighter. Perhaps it's because I have his picture below that you think that? lol. I just thought it was a cool picture. I liked the colors. I liked the documentary "Unforgiveable Blackness." That's pretty much all there is to it. I like Langford just as much, or even more. And I especially love Joe Jeannette and Sam McVea. Jeanatte because of that wild story with Jack Dempsey. McVea because of his wild time fighting a professional wrestler or Karate expert or whatever the guy was supposed to be when they said he would get murdered and the guy turned out to be a fraud. Langford the giant killer.

If you want to be honest, let's be honest. You want to go in on Jack Johnson because you believe I'm unfair to Jack Dempsey, and you believe I hold Jack Johnson higher than those other guys.

First of all, I don't hold Jack Johnson above those other guys.

Next, I've never been unfair to Jack Dempsey. I've told it like it is.

Third, I've never been untruthful about Jack Johnson. I said on page one I believe he broke this contract. Also said I believe he should have honored it. Also said you can blame him for Langford not getting a shot, depending on what instance of the fight you are looking at.

Again, I haven't contested anything you've said here, except you now claiming that offer was for $30,000 when Jack Johnsons quotation makes it clear it wasn't.

On the other hand, you keep denying obvious evidence. So I want you to tell me just one thing.


Did the commission not pull this fight between Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette? Yes or no?



If we get to the bottom of this, then I can tell you if Joe Jeannette is lying.

Not sure where you are getting this "emotional" stuff from or that I'm upset. Sounds a little like gaslighting to me. I've been quite cordial here. We are having a discussion which is thus far civil. A little spirited maybe, but otherwise I respect your position.

Johnson was offered several other fights after 1912, turned them all down as I have already posted with timelines.

There is plenty of testimony from fighters of the era and boxing historians who collectively agree that Johnson avoided the other top black fighters during his reign as champion. Newspaper snippets (not full articles) do not provide enough context to the contrary. Even full articles often got ahead of themselves to sell a story. Johnson could say he agreed to a fight, but without signed contracts those words carried little to no weight as we can see by the opponents he chose.

I'll note several instances of historians who agree Johnson drew his own color line, despite fighting a considerably smaller Jim Johnson while champion to a draw.

Regarding Joe Jeannette:

"Although Joe would never again fight Johnson after their 10-round draw in 1907 -- despite constant challenges while Jack was champion -- Joe and Sam Langford would fight on at least 11 other occasions. It should be pointed out that until Joe Louis became heavyweight champion, many white boxers would only rarely fight outside of their race. Accordingly, black pugilists were left to fighting each other again and again. Joe was no exception, fighting nearly half of his recorded 157 bouts against 8 to 10 other black boxers of his day.

Joe's greatest accomplishments came during his three trips to Paris, France. The backlash of Johnson's victory in Australia and Jack's unwillingness to fight any other Black fighters left Joe with very few competitive and profitable bouts in the United States. Joe, hearing about the acceptance of Black fighters in Paris and the lucrative purses being offered, decided to set sail to Europe. Under the guidance of Dan McKettrick, the very worldly, educated, and resourceful editor of the New York World, Joe arrived in Paris in the early part of 1909."

- Tracy Callis, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

Regarding Jeannette and McVea

"Joe and Sam finished numbers three and four of the Fearsome Black Foursome, and there they will forever stay. Such was the age when James Arthur "Jack" Johnson drew the color line on the rest of the big four".

Colleen Ay****, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization