Would American dominance of boxing in the 70s,80s been different

[Rusty Tromboni]

You just stated that Mexicans are the best prize fighters in the world. You make a statement like that you got to expect to be jumped (challenged).

I think this is an interesting 'what if' question but maybe it should be debated as to cultural and economic (opportunity) differences, not on innate racial (supposed) superiority.

Except that if you look at it that way, it only makes it harder to argue against Eastern Europeans.

Look how poor Ukraine is and what small percentage of the eorld they make. Yet they succeed so well in Boxing, MMA and Kickboxing.

Hell, look at America. When the Irish were at their Zenith in Boxing Ketchel and Greb still rose to the top of the heap. That's despite Poles and Germans strongly opposing Boxing. For the Irish, ***s and Italians Boxing wasn't beneath them because they weren'tsimply poor, they were dirt poor.

This is anecdotal, But growing up in NJ and Pennsylvania and working in Ohio I found no shortage of great Polish and German Americans on my teams. So clearly not seeing many Polish or German boxers back in the day had nothing to do with their lack of athleticism.

Coaches would joke "when you need lineman or Wrestlers, go through the school directory and high light all the Pollocks, and work from there." But Polish people didnt come here to see their kids get punched into dimentia. I know lots of kids I went to school with, Polish, German Lebanese who are Doctors, or professors or otherwise highly educated, and sports was just a vehicle to help them to get there.


What percentage of Black America has a High School diploma?

The same is probably true in Mexico, too: Canelo, Sanchez are White guys. Napoles a Black Cuban. That's not to say those guys are necessarily better than the Indians, like Chavez, Saldivar, Canto, Olivares. But the numbers definitely stand out.

So you see trying to argue nurture over nature, actually becomes an argument for nature.

[Rusty Tromboni]

That is not the purpose of high school sports. Winning is not (should not be) important. It is about turning boys into men; to prepare the next generation.

"The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." Wellington

All need to be given opportunity to participate and whether or not a high school coach is a winner should never be the measure of his success.

You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking that way.

Oh yea! right, you said "the reality is" -- OK, then make that change, don't go along with it.

It's adorable that you think that way.

I see that here in Michigan, which is basically Canada Lite.

On the East Coast kids and the parents take whining very seriously. They're often delusional about their future. And a Coach's career is decided by his results.

But again, it's cute YOU think otherwise.

[QueensburyRules]

if Eastern Europeans were allowed to go pro, remember it wasn't until the 90s that they were allowed to

many have argued that American dominance of boxing during the 70s,80s and even 90s would of been different if E. Europeans were allowed to go pro earlier

- -What if U never born?

Hoo could ask such a dum Question?

[Deontaytheking]

The same question was asked about that era if the Cubans turned pro. Now we are seeing the answer as many Cubans are trying but failing. But in the 70's many big guys were entering boxing to be like Ali. Since then Americans over 6'2" are entering sports other than boxing. There are thousands of College basketball players over 6'4" that will never make the nba. There are many more American athletes playing other sports will suffer the same outcome. American sports forgot boxing a long time ago. Nothing wrong with Euros doing well but boxing is suffering from a lack of interest. Which is too bad because it is a great sport.

[Rusty Tromboni]

The same question was asked about that era if the Cubans turned pro. Now we are seeing the answer as many Cubans are trying but failing. But in the 70's many big guys were entering boxing to be like Ali. Since then Americans over 6'2" are entering sports other than boxing. There are thousands of College basketball players over 6'4" that will never make the nba. There are many more American athletes playing other sports will suffer the same outcome. American sports forgot boxing a long time ago. Nothing wrong with Euros doing well but boxing is suffering from a lack of interest. Which is too bad because it is a great sport.

So is wrestling. It's because they're too hard. Team sports are easier, and continue to become easier.

You mentioned the NBA... does anyone still consider Basketball a sport? It's just a game at this point. Baseball: every game is a Homerun Derby. Football: it's becoming more like Two-Hand Touch. And now Soccer is bigger than ever. Sane with Golf and Tennis.

So yeah, Americans just don't have what it takes.

But pre-WWII the children of European immigrants dominated Boxing, so it's obvious if WWII hadnt happened that trend would have continued, though maybe more from Eastern Europe than other parts of the Continent.

We probably wouldn't have heard of guys like Ali, Hagler... lots of the champs we think of as legends probably wouldn't have made it. Not to the level they did.

[billeau2]

- -What if U never born?

Hoo could ask such a dum Question?

Please tell me when you post such a thng you are not pissing on the wall trying to spell your name...

[billeau2]

if Eastern Europeans were allowed to go pro, remember it wasn't until the 90s that they were allowed to

many have argued that American dominance of boxing during the 70s,80s and even 90s would of been different if E. Europeans were allowed to go pro earlier

First of all, when this was happening the amateur and olympic program was robust and a major fiat in itself. Many great fighters competed against each other in this program, was it exactly the same as the pros? No... But it showed greatness, skill and most people from that era would tell you the Cuban and Eastern European fighters could easily have fought professionally.

I look at it like the difference between pro and college football. Different game. Different kind of athlete... yet greatness is present, if often transfers and then...sometimes it does not. In Baseball when Blacks had their own league, it was the same thing. There were great players. They did not have to play for the major league teams to be great.

I think a lot of the arguments for one group over another that have come over this thread are hyperbole. Boxing is very clear about how great fighters are forged and it has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with social opportunity and success. As people succeed they leave fightsports, then maybe their kids come back.

The same Puerto Rican kids in my hood growing up, who ran numbers, fought in the streets with me, etc, are living it up in Long Island, because they made it. Today it is the Mexican kids who are in East Harlem and fighting hard...

[Marchegiano]

So is wrestling. It's because they're too hard. Team sports are easier, and continue to become easier.

You mentioned the NBA... does anyone still consider Basketball a sport? It's just a game at this point. Baseball: every game is a Homerun Derby. Football: it's becoming more like Two-Hand Touch. And now Soccer is bigger than ever. Sane with Golf and Tennis.

So yeah, Americans just don't have what it takes.

But pre-WWII the children of European immigrants dominated Boxing, so it's obvious if WWII hadnt happened that trend would have continued, though maybe more from Eastern Europe than other parts of the Continent.

We probably wouldn't have heard of guys like Ali, Hagler... lots of the champs we think of as legends probably wouldn't have made it. Not to the level they did.

Absolutely absurd.

it's a 3k year sport....it's WAY older than America. Not way older than eastern europe though is it?

Without America EEs get dominated by the UK. Read a book.

from the 1200s to the 1920s or whenever the USSR banned pros, America has barely anything to do with why the EEs got their asses handed to them and sent home.


People use modern politics as a convenient example to explain a HISTORICAL question without ever cracking a ****ing history book, case in ****ing point right here.


So um, WWII, yeah......before that the Americans who dominated boxing were not the sons of European immigrants or THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES?!?!

***** read you about Tom Hyer Young America before you run that ****sucker.


We ain't king because of some ****** ethnicity deal. We got them all. We are king because our laws are best. Otherwise the Irish who beat the **** out of the English in the name of America wouldn't've been American, ya dumb ****, they'd've stayed in Ireland....duh.

Without WWII we'd still be America, just like how we were America before WWII. It wasn't the BE catching all the Irish and Aussie challengers and making them Americans. It's not ****ing Russia men flocked to, to have their children in a nation they could succeed in only to see their children be successful. That's America.


To say WWII.....man you didn't even think about it.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Absolutely absurd.

it's a 3k year sport....it's WAY older than America. Not way older than eastern europe though is it?

Without America EEs get dominated by the UK. Read a book.

from the 1200s to the 1920s or whenever the USSR banned pros, America has barely anything to do with why the EEs got their asses handed to them and sent home.


People use modern politics as a convenient example to explain a HISTORICAL question without ever cracking a ****ing history book, case in ****ing point right here.


So um, WWII, yeah......before that the Americans who dominated boxing were not the sons of European immigrants or THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES?!?!

***** read you about Tom Hyer Young America before you run that ****sucker.


We ain't king because of some ****** ethnicity deal. We got them all. We are king because our laws are best. Otherwise the Irish who beat the **** out of the English in the name of America wouldn't've been American, ya dumb ****, they'd've stayed in Ireland....duh.

Without WWII we'd still be America, just like how we were America before WWII. It wasn't the BE catching all the Irish and Aussie challengers and making them Americans. It's not ****ing Russia men flocked to, to have their children in a nation they could succeed in only to see their children be successful. That's America.


To say WWII.....man you didn't even think about it.

Maybe don't post while drinking?


I will say, it's impressive that you could make a post without mentioning some invented ancient Greek folk hero.

[billeau2]

Absolutely absurd.

it's a 3k year sport....it's WAY older than America. Not way older than eastern europe though is it?

Without America EEs get dominated by the UK. Read a book.

from the 1200s to the 1920s or whenever the USSR banned pros, America has barely anything to do with why the EEs got their asses handed to them and sent home.


People use modern politics as a convenient example to explain a HISTORICAL question without ever cracking a ****ing history book, case in ****ing point right here.


So um, WWII, yeah......before that the Americans who dominated boxing were not the sons of European immigrants or THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES?!?!

***** read you about Tom Hyer Young America before you run that ****sucker.


We ain't king because of some ****** ethnicity deal. We got them all. We are king because our laws are best. Otherwise the Irish who beat the **** out of the English in the name of America wouldn't've been American, ya dumb ****, they'd've stayed in Ireland....duh.

Without WWII we'd still be America, just like how we were America before WWII. It wasn't the BE catching all the Irish and Aussie challengers and making them Americans. It's not ****ing Russia men flocked to, to have their children in a nation they could succeed in only to see their children be successful. That's America.


To say WWII.....man you didn't even think about it.

Good post. It is quite obvious that America had many waves of immigration and they all produced...No one was better than another. The melting pot made Americans out of ******s, Chinese, etc. Great fighters, in similar fashion, are forged out of conditions not from some ethnic recipe that finds its way and retains some special prodigious essence.

Whats so special about our melting pot is that individual cultures retain their ways, and also become Americans and here is my damn bone to pick: NOBODY EVER SEEMS TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE BEING MESSICAN AND AMERICAN...ITALIAN AND AMERICAN....CHINESE AND AMERICAN...ETC ETC ETC...UNTIL SOME NATIONALIST BRINGS IT UP! Americans have been strong enough not to succumb to this ******ity that has destroyed great cities and countries like Lebanon (beruit), Bosnia...where people who had been living side by side with each other one day started killing each other out of national pride.

All these Eastern Europeans train in the same places as everyone else did... Go figure.