Intimidation. Sonny Liston.

[billeau2]

Beautiful post.

Tyson was a great talent, even if a horrible person.

We are all responsible for our actions. I grew up in a neighborhood that was similar to Tyson's but I had all the advantages... with the notable irony that the one advantage I lacked, being the strongest meanest individual around lol, counted for a lot of advantages back in the day.

Tyson was initially taught he was nothing... I used to teach kids like that in High School. The kind of kids that could kill someone, and even had a mean streak (some were not mean at all). The minute one showed resolve, and show they cared for such a kid, that kid changed dramatically. Even a teacher, like the guy who taught English next to me and was murdered in China (while on vacation), who gave the kids very little, was loved by the kids because he showed some understanding, and acted as a man.

Tyson was also very smart. And when people started to give him love, he quickly figured out it was conditional... That he was a means to an end. That tends to make people evil. Its like if if I knew my wife, kids and dogs, did not give two s h its about me, only that I made sure things were taken care of, and that, when I screwed something up, I could be thrown out. Nobody likes to live that way Rusty don't you think?

People make it seem like when Mike went to Don King, he abandoned these fathers in his life...Like the priest who got Liston into boxing. They fail to realize that Mike was angry at them. Mike wanted someone...anyone to grab him and look him in the eye and say "I love you for who you are and whether you like it, or not, I am going to tell you what is best for you." Thats what real men are supposed to be capable of doing.

The men around Mike adored him, but they did so because of how he fought. Why do you think Mike was so nervous before fights in the early days? Mike knew that the adoration he recieved was conditional. Mike prolly knew that although Don King was a snake, at least everyone was on the same page.

Maybe Cus was special, maybe not. But Mike was put in a situation where most people would be dreadful.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Well, I have a different opinion. Fighters themselves admitted they were intimidated, why should they have lied ? To be nice ?To show they were weak in some moments ?
Besides, it is enough to see some face-offs like e.g. Tyson vs. Spinks (the most famous one I guess); I can see (and read somewhere about his fear deep inside) the fear in Clay's eyes during his 1st face-off as well.
Fear is a human feeling, even the brave Hector feared Achilles.

There's also the fear of failure.

When you wrestle you get to know your competition. Especially the further you go. Absolutely there are GUYS you learn to fear. But most of the anxiety is owed to the moment.

If you were worried about getting hurt. Or didn't believe you could be the best, you would've quit long ago. But failing to deliver what YOU believe you're capable of doing when it matters most is super stressful.

Ever wonder why all the Wrestlers you knew growing up webt from being the finest physical specimens to being broken disgusting fatbodies?

My brother's a batting coach. He says at a certain point it's all mental. Some guys just can't take the pressure. So while Ted Williams might've been the most physically talented person ever, he just as likely was a man who had unparalleled psychological prowess.

[a.rihn]

As others have said, it is interesting to see the Liston thread turn into a Tyson thread. Tyson himself often made his own comparisons to Liston: a strong, tough fighter who was cast as "bad person" (and whose talents were, perhaps, overlooked in favor of the "badness" narrative).

Before he fought Holyfield, Tyson actually laid flowers on Sonny Liston's grave.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Ingo was a tough sob. Some years back, there is this Swede with a big gut, a smile... It was Ingo and at some relatively advanced age, he had just finished running a marathon. Most guys built as such, would rather fight than run lol. He finished the damn thing!

Yeah, in terms of natural talent and sheer will-power, he was one of the best we've seen.

If he could've been lined-up with a Gore or Beristain type trainer to polish him up he might've really become one of the great ever. Look at what Arcel did with Duran.

Of course, what really ended Ingo's career was Ingo. He accomplished what he'd set out to do. Once he achieved that he recognized he didn't want to commit what was required to remain there, so he quit. Pretty admirable actually.

Just look at a less talented but more committed guy like Charles and you see how much differently their lives transpired. Who's fate would you want for you or your kids?

[Rusty Tromboni]

We are all responsible for our actions. I grew up in a neighborhood that was similar to Tyson's but I had all the advantages... with the notable irony that the one advantage I lacked, being the strongest meanest individual around lol, counted for a lot of advantages back in the day.

Tyson was initially taught he was nothing... I used to teach kids like that in High School. The kind of kids that could kill someone, and even had a mean streak (some were not mean at all). The minute one showed resolve, and show they cared for such a kid, that kid changed dramatically. Even a teacher, like the guy who taught English next to me and was murdered in China (while on vacation), who gave the kids very little, was loved by the kids because he showed some understanding, and acted as a man.

Tyson was also very smart. And when people started to give him love, he quickly figured out it was conditional... That he was a means to an end. That tends to make people evil. Its like if if I knew my wife, kids and dogs, did not give two s h its about me, only that I made sure things were taken care of, and that, when I screwed something up, I could be thrown out. Nobody likes to live that way Rusty don't you think?

People make it seem like when Mike went to Don King, he abandoned these fathers in his life...Like the priest who got Liston into boxing. They fail to realize that Mike was angry at them. Mike wanted someone...anyone to grab him and look him in the eye and say "I love you for who you are and whether you like it, or not, I am going to tell you what is best for you." Thats what real men are supposed to be capable of doing.

The men around Mike adored him, but they did so because of how he fought. Why do you think Mike was so nervous before fights in the early days? Mike knew that the adoration he recieved was conditional. Mike prolly knew that although Don King was a snake, at least everyone was on the same page.

Maybe Cus was special, maybe not. But Mike was put in a situation where most people would be dreadful.

Great insight. But that sounds exactly like what Don King and Tyson's wife would've said.

[Rusty Tromboni]

As others have said, it is interesting to see the Liston thread turn into a Tyson thread. Tyson himself often made his own comparisons to Liston: a strong, tough fighter who was cast as "bad person" (and whose talents were, perhaps, overlooked in favor of the "badness" narrative).

Before he fought Holyfield, Tyson actually laid flowers on Sonny Liston's grave.

Both hard-mouthed curs, too.

[Dariusz]

There's also the fear of failure.

When you wrestle you get to know your competition. Especially the further you go. Absolutely there are GUYS you learn to fear. But most of the anxiety is owed to the moment.

If you were worried about getting hurt. Or didn't believe you could be the best, you would've quit long ago. But failing to deliver what YOU believe you're capable of doing when it matters most is super stressful.

Ever wonder why all the Wrestlers you knew growing up webt from being the finest physical specimens to being broken disgusting fatbodies?

My brother's a batting coach. He says at a certain point it's all mental. Some guys just can't take the pressure. So while Ted Williams might've been the most physically talented person ever, he just as likely was a man who had unparalleled psychological prowess.

Another excellent post. Yes, a fear of failure (instead fear of opponent) is equally dangerous, or even more dangerous as one can overcome the fear of opponent even during the early stage (as e.g. Clay or Douglas did) while a fear of failure stays till the end.

[Roberto Vasquez]

Well, I have a different opinion. Fighters themselves admitted they were intimidated, why should they have lied ? To be nice ?To show they were weak in some moments ?
Besides, it is enough to see some face-offs like e.g. Tyson vs. Spinks (the most famous one I guess); I can see (and read somewhere about his fear deep inside) the fear in Clay's eyes during his 1st face-off as well.
Fear is a human feeling, even the brave Hector feared Achilles.

I'm sure some fighters do get intimidated but it's hard to see why. I mean being a pro-fighter you know you could lose any fight. Just what is this guy standing opposite going to do to you?. The worst he can do is knock you out and any decent fighter - scary aura or not - could do that

Also you mentioned Joshua and Wilder. I don't see those guys been scared at all so far in their career. It's just people seeing what they want to see

[Dariusz]

I'm sure some fighters do get intimidated but it's hard to see why. I mean being a pro-fighter you know you could lose any fight. Just what is this guy standing opposite going to do to you?. The worst he can do is knock you out and any decent fighter - scary aura or not - could do that

Also you mentioned Joshua and Wilder. I don't see those guys been scared at all so far in their career. It's just people seeing what they want to see

Well, Roberto, perhaps I see too much non-existing things but it is not hard to me to see fear or imagine fear. You're right that thinking rationally the worst thing one can suffer is KO but some people just are made to evoke much bigger fear than necessary, IMO -- because of scary face, scary look, scary reputation, etc.

As regards Joshua and Wilder -- I can't help but saw some kind of fear (might be a fear of losing that Rusty mentioned as it is hard to imagine Joshua feared baby-faced Ruiz or Wilder feared clowning Fury) both in eyes of Joshua facing Ruiz 2 and Wilder facing Fury 2.

[The Old LefHook]

Our ranks are swelling with corona refugees.