Intimidation. Sonny Liston.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I am no boxing expert but your statements about Tyson are echoed by many pundits who know their stuff. Tyson at a conceptual best would be a dangerous fight for any ATG. What many fail to realize about Tyson, is that like Liston, who was illiterate (Mike was not illiterate), Tyson was very smart. Both men studied their craft.

Tyson to many was a stronger version of Dempsey at his best. Tyson had very fast feet, so he could come in off a line and be on top of a man with reach in a split second. Tyson also shows all kinds of skills in the tape. I wish I had the tape of him doing pivots, just like Dempsey did. And he had two hands of equal dynamite! As far as size, its an interesting issue as to how that would affect him versus bigger men.

Everyone benefits from Greco-Riman Wtestling.

But Tython really would've benefited from a proper camp and trainer. Holyfield's style was custom-made for beating Tyson.

[Tatabanya]

Nice post.

Do you really believe Holyfield was at his best?

In Tython's defense, Holyfield appeared to be in decline. If it were Holly coming off the victory over Bowe, Tyson might've been better prepared both mentally and physically.

Holyfield, to his credit, was the master of career-resurgence. Robinsonesque.

Good question, gave me food for thought. Holyfield had so many ups and downs in his HW career, I'm tempted to say that his best was when he defeated Dwight Qawi in the rematch - at cruiser!

Let's say, then, that when he fought Tyson he was not really in his prime - he had been defeated by Bowe twice already, and looked like shìt vs Czyz - but those two fights brought out his best in terms of mental strength and willingness to win.

Incidentally, the toughness shown by Holyfield in the first Tyson fight is alone sufficient to contradict any theory about Tyson being a quitter, universally based on the bite (basically, a raging outburst due to headbutt-induced frustration) but in reality completely deprived of substance. Tyson always took his beatings like a man, even when his drugged self was being massacred by Lennox Lewis. Andrew Golota was a quitter, not Tyson. People eat commonplaces for breakfast. But let's move on.

Mentally and physically, Tyson could not have been the same in any case. The Don King mess and three years in the slammer essentially killed his "Rooney engine", which was based on speed, accuracy and effective pressure. All qualities that gradually deteriorated in the post-1988 versions of Tyson, until he became a mere puncher with just some residual skills. Enough to beat people such as the late Alex Stewart (one round for Tyson, while he gave Holyfield hell in their first fight), Bruno, Ruddock, Golota. But not a Holyfield in that shape and frame of mind.

Lest one forgets, Tyson was a drug and alcohol addict for the bulk of his late career. But even in that condition, he was still able to blow away in thirty seconds fighters like Savarese and Etienne, who before fighting Tyson had been decent opponents for other heavyweights. It's a bit of the same story with many opponents of young Tyson, considered noteworthy before he knocked them out yet reduced to bums in the mouth of the casuals whose idols flourished in the subsequent decade. Think Carl Williams, practically a winner vs a still excellent Larry Holmes but destroyed in 93 seconds by Tyson.

Just facts. I love facts.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Good question, gave me food for thought. Holyfield had so many ups and downs in his HW career, I'm tempted to say that his best was when he defeated Dwight Qawi in the rematch - at cruiser!

Let's say, then, that when he fought Tyson he was not really in his prime - he had been defeated by Bowe twice already, and looked like shìt vs Czyz - but those two fights brought out his best in terms of mental strength and willingness to win.

Incidentally, the toughness shown by Holyfield in the first Tyson fight is alone sufficient to contradict any theory about Tyson being a quitter, universally based on the bite (basically, a raging outburst due to headbutt-induced frustration) but in reality completely deprived of substance. Tyson always took his beatings like a man, even when his drugged self was being massacred by Lennox Lewis. Andrew Golota was a quitter, not Tyson. People eat commonplaces for breakfast. But let's move on.

Mentally and physically, Tyson could not have been the same in any case. The Don King mess and three years in the slammer essentially killed his "Rooney engine", which was based on speed, accuracy and effective pressure. All qualities that gradually deteriorated in the post-1988 versions of Tyson, until he became a mere puncher with just some residual skills. Enough to beat people such as the late Alex Stewart (one round for Tyson, while he gave Holyfield hell in their first fight), Bruno, Ruddock, Golota. But not a Holyfield in that shape and frame of mind.

Lest one forgets, Tyson was a drug and alcohol addict for the bulk of his late career. But even in that condition, he was still able to blow away in thirty seconds fighters like Savarese and Etienne, who before fighting Tyson had been decent opponents for other heavyweights. It's a bit of the same story with many opponents of young Tyson, considered noteworthy before he knocked them out yet reduced to bums in the mouth of the casuals whose idols flourished in the subsequent decade. Think Carl Williams, practically a winner vs a still excellent Larry Holmes but destroyed in 93 seconds by Tyson.

Just facts. I love facts.

Beautiful post.

Tyson was a great talent, even if a horrible person.

[Tatabanya]

Beautiful post.

Tyson was a great talent, even if a horrible person.

Thanks Rusty. A wasted talent indeed, perhaps the biggest wasted talent of them all.

He fully admitted being a horrible person when he finally became sober, that should be counted in his favor.

[Dariusz]

I don't buy that many elite professional fighters are intimidated at all. I think maybe against someone like Wilder before the Fury defeat his KO record would play on your mind. Especially when you got people like Haye saying Wilder hits freakishly hard. It's more myth-making on the part of the press and promoters that does it.

I see so many face-off videos where in the comments people say a certain fighter looks scared then in the fight that fighter wins easily. People mostly see what they want to see or think everyone behaves the same way

Well, I have a different opinion. Fighters themselves admitted they were intimidated, why should they have lied ? To be nice ?To show they were weak in some moments ?
Besides, it is enough to see some face-offs like e.g. Tyson vs. Spinks (the most famous one I guess); I can see (and read somewhere about his fear deep inside) the fear in Clay's eyes during his 1st face-off as well.
Fear is a human feeling, even the brave Hector feared Achilles.

[Dariusz]

Now, a thought for poor Dariusz, who saw his Sonny Liston thread turned into a Tyson vs Holyfield quarrel

Thanks, lol. No probs, I read all the posts with interest, all of you have a great knowledge of boxing history and art.

[billeau2]

Your 10 second Mike Tyson moment of the day, enjoy!

Great catch!

[billeau2]

OK, if we want to be obtuse there's no evidence of Williams doing to Liston EXACTLY what Vander did to Tython.


But Williams wasn't as good as Holyfield, and Liston was at his best while Mike was at his worst.

Holyfield specialized at getting in and getting off on bigger and badder men than Liston, though.

So, yeah, you're not COMPLETELY wrong.

Thank you. Sheesh! Was that so hard? I never have compared Williams to Holly Rusty. I am one of those people that look disorganized but psychologically I can do the equivalent of telling someone what I had for breakfast two years ago to the day...

Trust me I know I have never compared Holly and Williams...I have not thought about it enough to even opine on the subject.

[Tatabanya]

Besides, it is enough to see some face-offs like e.g. Tyson vs. Spinks (the most famous one I guess)

Actually, if you look at the Tyson vs Spinks (theoretical) staredown you'll realize that both fighters just look to the floor, Tyson even scratching his head during the referee's instructions. Spinks looks a little concerned, Tyson almost uninterested.

I think Spinks was more worried as he was waiting for Tyson to enter the ring, he had to wait for a while and most probably got a little anxious there.

[billeau2]

This is the greatest post ever written here at Boxing Scene. They could shut it down tomorrow, and that would be fine. We've reached our zenith.


Pre-Exile Ali fought absolute dog shyte for competition. But people rave about him and attest to his invincibility. When he returned he was better. Unfortunately, his best opponent absolutely battered him.

Conversely, Ingo, in JUST 25 fights, flat-lined Patterson and Machen (in a way which much bigger men couldn't). But he's regarded as one of the worst Heavyweight Champions ever. And he definitely doesn't get the Lovefest guys like Spinks and Jones get.

Ingo was a tough sob. Some years back, there is this Swede with a big gut, a smile... It was Ingo and at some relatively advanced age, he had just finished running a marathon. Most guys built as such, would rather fight than run lol. He finished the damn thing!