Is Joe Louis Still Overratred.

[The Old LefHook]

It just may be that Schmeling is the best and most prime fighter Louis ever fought and beat. We know Marciano was greater, But Louis did not beat him.Baeiouywr was so variable that he cannot be trusted as a yardstick.

[billeau2]

Its a cold night at Wittenberg Castle

Martin Luther fumes... holds the nail firmly, alas this is not about priests selling indulgences, rather it says: "By Crook, by book, I shall tear the meat from the bones of your sacred cows..." The babe was a chubby boy and Joe Louis....Ordinary!

Gasp! have we moved past Larry Holmes so fast?!

25 times Louis was good enough... to use the numbers game that punchers use, knowing that feet at any speed would allow him to have his hand raised... 25 times he was fast enough, smart enough, in shape enough, and looked good doing it.

His form is on tape, and his feet were as fast as they needed to be, a lot of you have no sense or understanding regarding economy of movement and how, as a heavy weight, one should not be running around the ring, especially not a puncher.

Competition is one variable, it is not the only adjudicator of greatness.

[The Old LefHook]

And it worked great on cooperative opponents. Conn did not cooperate, and made a ninny of Joe, by buggery. Joe only caught the tiny man because he forgot to be uncooperative when he saw what a lumbering plodder Joe the giant was.

[The Old LefHook]

Self control, however, was pounded into Joe by his team of handlers. They first saw that he was a good boy and malleable. He was not mean at heart and bitter. After the debacle of JJ's reign, Joe's gun shy handler's never wanted to see a single nìgger snicker or cóón sneer out of their charge. Whitey would not stand fr' it, by buggery.

When you clamp down that hard you inadvertently affect other elements of style and expression. A man who fights with reckless abandon will also sometimes wear a vicious face of reckless abandon in the ring, and is likely to show big emotion when suddenly coming back from a hurtful hammern. Joe was so good at following instructions that he often wore the placid expression of a priest about to give mass as he was knocking opponents senseless. And don't you EVER gloat over a fallen white hero, buck, for you are a man so loved as to be allowed to hammer Lana Turner. Don't you EVER pretend to **** that girl, or you'll see a rope. How's the eye, champ?

[billeau2]

And it worked great on cooperative opponents. Conn did not cooperate, and made a ninny of Joe, by buggery. Joe only caught the tiny man because he forgot to be uncooperative when he saw what a lumbering plodder Joe the giant was.

No...No sir Angus!!! With Conn you saw the purest expression of Quantum theory as regards a great fighter... That we as specs a second in the universe can demonstrate such action is a sort of immortality aint it?

Louis went into the ring and knew that alleged slow feet, opponents proclivities, etc, that he would get a certain amount of chances to land his punch...He was using a 15 round frame for the championship fights. What people fail to realize is, with a real bona fide puncher...it does not matter when... as long as he gets enough chances, probability will not be damned, and he will succeed. He could be getting beat all night, but as long as he gets those chances and his weapons are primed, he can achieve greatness.

THAT is what Louis was so great at! stalking, cutting the ring, punching with beautiful form...always winding up (for his prime) catching his man...that is the archetype of the puncher, the greatness of a puncher...we see it persist today. Shannon Briggs took the last 20 seconds of the fight to beat The Eastern Euro fighter...Wilder almost beat Fury on the same calculus.

The genius of Joe Louis was more than form and power with his punching, and more that the sum of talent of his opposition Lefty. Put another way: Would you expect the record Louis holds for defenses in a division, to be held by a puncher? or a fighter like Mayweather, who wins rounds easily? It would be as if Dimaggios' record which will never be broken...was held by a home run hitter. Even Conn could not avoid Louis in the end, and outboxing him the entire fight, fell prey to probability.

All this because Louis was the quinesential technically flawless punching machine. He never moved more than he had to, and still sets the mark for the technically perfect puncher.

[billeau2]

Self control, however, was pounded into Joe by his team of handlers. They first saw that he was a good boy and malleable. He was not mean at heart and bitter. After the debacle of JJ's reign, Joe's gun shy handler's never wanted to see a single nìgger snicker or cóón sneer out of their charge. Whitey would not stand fr' it, by buggery.

When you clamp down that hard you inadvertently affect other elements of style and expression. A man who fights with reckless abandon will also sometimes wear a vicious face of reckless abandon in the ring, and is likely to show big emotion when suddenly coming back from a hurtful hammern. Joe was so good at following instructions that he often wore the placid expression of a priest about to give mass as he was knocking opponents senseless. And don't you EVER gloat over a fallen white hero, buck, for you are a man so loved as to be allowed to hammer Lana Turner. Don't you EVER pretend to **** that girl, or you'll see a rope. How's the eye, champ?

Blackburn trained Joe... A man who was a great fighter himself, saw the work of Dempsey, and demanded perfection from a "good boy" as you put it...Did you know Blackburn was a Black man? And that this black man rebelled against convention to develop a new method of technical excellence? Blackburn took ideas that Dempsey had developed as well and made himself the ultimate puncher.

Joe Louis had the entire nation behind him, people tended to forget the color line because Louis was strong enough to be the champion for all. So no, he was not a docile creole, doing the work for pennies to pick up... The second fight against Schmelling probably was the most stressful fight ever for a champ to undertake.

Lefty I always like to say: you want to stop a fight between a black man and a white man? let the little green man land... I love my fellow posters but some of these racial assumptions are ridiculous...Louis was kind, he was not obsequious.

[The Old LefHook]

How wrong can one man be? That's you, son, not me. Are you going for the record or something?

A while back you were on here talking about how fast Louis's feet were. I don't see you trying to defend that one. Hoping we will forget such statements, eh?

I hear all your favoritism coming out for Joey. He caught Conn because of what Conn did, not because he suddenly found what worked. You are another historical revisionist intent on bending history until it meets your vision.

[cfang]

Louis is not overrated. He lost nearly 4 years to the war.

He made 26 title defences and without the war you could easily see him racking up to 40 or even more. It'd be an unparalleled record.

He was a tremendous fighter. Never wasted a punch, economical with incredible timing and power. Also the man was so brave its not true. Hed have been a match for anyone in any era and you can make a case for him being the best at heavy.

You can to some degree say the same about Ali but if he didn't have his hiatus hed have come up against frazier sooner and that would have been hard.

[billeau2]

How wrong can one man be? That's you, son, not me. Are you going for the record or something?

A while back you were on here talking about how fast Louis's feet were. I don't see you trying to defend that one. Hoping we will forget such statements, eh?

I hear all your favoritism coming out for Joey. He caught Conn because of what Conn did, not because he suddenly found what worked. You are another historical revisionist intent on bending history until it meets your vision.

There are films of Louis where he shows fast feet, but is that really important? If it is will try to find the tapes I was referring too. If that bugged you back then should have mentioned it...would have been happy to look and post then.

Revisionist? No. Actually saying Louis is ordinary is the revisionist statement in this case...Its not a slight necessarily, though you sound bitter and ill informed concerning your critique. You went into a personal diatribe as well. louis was know to be a decent sort... Why does that have to be anymore that it is? And you may not like it but his talents were developed by aggressive, succesful Black fighters...live with it, embrace it. I am just as happy with Liston and his Irish Priests... its all good Lefty stop being a jackwad.

Regarding Conn. Yeah of course...It can be explained away like most any fight can. Wilder does the same thing on the daily... Well.... If Ortiz had just backed off, he could have won that right? It jut don't work that way. And Louis had more time in that fight to make it work if I recall.

Come on man... Seriously?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rated higher than he should be, absolutely.

Oh yeah? How high is he rated? Who should be rated higher?

I find it preposterous that there are still many people who rank him above Ali. It's an impossible argument.

uh.... what could Frazier and Norton do that Louis couldn't?

Besides live with themselves for giving a half-hearted effort.

His legacy relies fully on his longevity and technical skills for his era. A masterful HW boxer, ahead of his time indeed. I get it, his punching was like art.

But

But nothing. Show me a better offensive fighter.

Show me a more consistent Heavyweight champion.

But he fought in a weak HW era, and certainly his best opponents were Schmeling(whom he's 1-1 with, and although he proved to be better in the end, I think a long technical beatdown resulting in a KO is worse than getting caught cold and finished in the 1st round IMO)

Schmeling was OLD when he lost that fight. In fact, he was past his prime when he beat Louis.

And Louis' loss showed he wasn't too bright. Then again, that was one of 4 times in his ENTIRE career where he didn't have to do exactly the same thing. 2 of those 4 times came past his prime.

So I will give you that. But don't sell Scmeling short. He was better than Spinks for sure. And people on the Forum these days LOVE Spinks.

and how much trouble he had with Conn etc.

When you say things like that, Trophy Boy, your chance of ever being taken seriously pretty much diminishes.

Do you walk around childrens' hospitals telling kids with cancer to stop crying, it's just cancer?

You definitely come across as that type of person.

lol, at dismissing billy conn.
What's the big deal!? it's just the spectacular Billy Conn. The fastest learner Boxing has ever seen. No big deal.

Louis won that fight with a KO, BTW. I can't think of a more extraordinary Heavyweight comeback than that, save Fury rising off the mat to smack Wilder around for the remainer of the fight.


You need to try harder, Trophy Kid.