Langford vs Schmeling

[cfang]

Max schmeling would probably do to langford what he did to Mickey Walker.

[billeau2]

- -What I'm saying is at this point in time Usyk is a more accomplished heavy than Mr Field. See Fields 28-10-2 heavy record as reference.

Joe Joyce and others ain't the dainties you making them.

Different level of the game... You don't like the b@st@rd maker I get it...If all his progeny were in the ring the other fighter could not even stand...on one leg! But you tend to exxagerate er...a bit? I like the Usyk, lets see how funny he thinks it is when he gets hit in the mouth so hard he can taste the chrome bubbles he sees..Maybe he perseveres, and maybe its a rougher road than you imagine. Hes game and time will tell us.

[Rusty Tromboni]

He fights as a European and uses much better foot work. Yes he is very good, but not much head movement to speak of and all I want to see before declaring him "better" or "worse" is what happens when he gets "tagged, your it!"

I mean come on Rusty... Your speaking about this guy as though he has been tested as a heavyweight. And even as a cruiser/light heavy, how will he do when he gets in the ring with a guy good enough to hit him? i personally wonder...

Ill tell you a story (gasps, as people run for the exits, popcorn thrown everywhere shrieks of 'no please...' lol). I trained in a popular Japanese Art for many years, the Bujinkan. I liked it for certain features... The chief teacher Hatsumi Sensei would teach many things for years... The one thing you would not see is small body movements, what is often called Tai Sabaki. The emphasis was always on whole body movements and adjustments... I figured out one day why this was: when you are calculating distance, angles, etc you can be fairly universal using whole body movements... Everyone doing a step to a 90 degree angle will conform to the same parameters.

Guess what though? Not on Tai Sabaki. when I make a shoulder adjustment, a hip turn...it depends on the relative reach, positioning, of me to my opponent. it will work slightly differently if i have longer arms, shorter arms, etc. People who fight, fought, know this and can make these adjustments automatically. people who do not...well it would be a lot harder to teach them these adjustments, so Hatsumi didn't, I guess figuring when they wanted to they would see to those adjustments.

So when we look at Usk in a way I see him as, like a lot of European styled fighters, not using those type of adjustments, including head movements. He is very strong on setting a distance, using the jab and feint to gradly work in on his opponent. He already had a close match with the fighter that beat Haye (forget his name) but that guy has no power, was not a threat. I do't think Usk, without making such adjustments, will have quite the success you think he will at heavy weight, we will see.

Eventually in fighting, one will encounter a need to move properly with the upper torso area, independent of the feet. Jut a reality to be aware of.

Dude, let me just get a couple of things out of the way first:

1) I love ALL your posts. Very well thought out. Seasoned with personal experience w/o you running the risk of outing yourself on the vicious, unforgiving internet. All very entertaining and insightful. Never just Boxing, and always providing broader insight.

2) But when you pull in your Martial Arts expericence it's really magical. I love your insight on karate and other Eastern Martial Arts. All these years people have tried to deny how great they are. But MMA is looking more and more like Eastern Martial Arts (obviously with lots of tweaks, and borowing from other martial arts like Boxing & Muay Thai). For years I was trying to get the real story, but no one had the experience you have.

3) You're concilatory of people you think are waaay off base. Whch I am sure many times I am.

However, I think you're over-simplifying. I definitely get what you're saying. But I could just as easily say American fighters are punk ass b i t c h es who run, clich, foul and cover up to win, not to mention use PEDs, and fall apart once their chins are checked. See: Mayweather, Jones, Hopkins, Toney & Ward.

See how that works?

Or how about they're HUGE punches with no heart, and no chin, and are only good against smaller men?

Yes, there was a time when Euro Boxers were sub-par. And the post-Communist Boxers were very static and type-specific.

Usyk and Golovkin have features of those fighters, but have been far too successful to be lumped with those underperformers. And lets not forget, at the eve of WWII we had French Boxers like Cerdan, Dauthile, Thil, etc. Anything but Euro Bums.


Conversely, we could say Marciano just fought a bunch of old Black dudes: all you gotta do is hurt them, and they'll quit. Hard Mouthed Curs. See how that works?

Marciano never fought anyone as tough or as crafty as Usyk. The footage proves that. I am sorry if you disagree, but unless you can show me footage that proves anyone Marciano fought is on Usyk's level, I stand by the evidence supporting him.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Max schmeling would probably do to langford what he did to Mickey Walker.

Yeah, Langford was bigger and had a bigger punch. Maybe, just maybe, he was a better pure-boxer than Walker. And we can say Walker wasn't his best against Schmeling. But I really don't see a Loughran-like performance from Langford. He tries to KO Max and gets murked for the effort. Easy night for Schmeling.

[billeau2]

Dude, let me just get a couple of things out of the way first:

1) I love ALL your posts. Very well thought out. Seasoned with personal experience w/o you running the risk of outing yourself on the vicious, unforgiving internet. All very entertaining and insightful. Never just Boxing, and always providing broader insight.

2) But when you pull in your Martial Arts expericence it's really magical. I love your insight on karate and other Eastern Martial Arts. All these years people have tried to deny how great they are. But MMA is looking more and more like Eastern Martial Arts (obviously with lots of tweaks, and borowing from other martial arts like Boxing & Muay Thai). For years I was trying to get the real story, but no one had the experience you have.

3) You're concilatory of people you think are waaay off base. Whch I am sure many times I am.

However, I think you're over-simplifying. I definitely get what you're saying. But I could just as easily say American fighters are punk ass b i t c h es who run, clich, foul and cover up to win, not to mention use PEDs, and fall apart once their chins are checked. See: Mayweather, Jones, Hopkins, Toney & Ward.

See how that works?

Or how about they're HUGE punches with no heart, and no chin, and are only good against smaller men?

Yes, there was a time when Euro Boxers were sub-par. And the post-Communist Boxers were very static and type-specific.

Usyk and Golovkin have features of those fighters, but have been far too successful to be lumped with those underperformers. And lets not forget, at the eve of WWII we had French Boxers like Cerdan, Dauthile, Thil, etc. Anything but Euro Bums.


Conversely, we could say Marciano just fought a bunch of old Black dudes: all you gotta do is hurt them, and they'll quit. Hard Mouthed Curs. See how that works?

Marciano never fought anyone as tough or as crafty as Usyk. The footage proves that. I am sorry if you disagree, but unless you can show me footage that proves anyone Marciano fought is on Usyk's level, I stand by the evidence supporting him.

I don't agree about Marciano but the general point made I concede. With one Caveat Just want to see how Usyk does when he fights one of the true talented big boys.

You know what is great about logical fallicies? They work in the very crevices of our thoughts, and often enough we can't see them. So... what if I told you that European boxing, master teachers, were writing about how stiff the European fighters were, compared to the Americans (this is true for what it is worth), back in the 1890's? and that European fighters could not hit well (language at the time) because they would never use the rear power hand...

Here is what I am essentially asking you to do: take a good prejudice and not one of those bad ones! How silly and illogical is that to ask of someone? So Kudos, you are absolutely correct on that point.

Regarding martial arts and combat. The field has its very own rabbit holes lol. You want to catch a read from Don Draeger for some great insights... Here is something to remember that is of the utmost importance if you appreciate my insights. People are famously misled about what constitutes combat. Another great author to read who I suspect you would enjoy is Rory Miller. I mention him because of this very attitude. Miller is to my mind the most sober and realistic proponent of how combat works, and he studies a classical Japanese Martial Art. My studies include a lot of work with classical Japanese Martial arts...So what is the connection?

Life and death combat is recorded in these arts. The movements and techniques often look antiquated and even silly unless you know what to look for. The KoRyu arts of Japan were formed from battlefield encounters where the stronger arts persevered and the weaker arts became extinct because their founders and students were killed. Success, on the other hand was recorded dilligently in documents, and there was a procedure for passing these documents down to others (Kudan).

What people did was to take parts of these systems and adapt them to their own hermetically sealed purposes. So for example, Judo has parts of Ju Jutsu in it that work well for having a contest. On a battle field if a Samurai had tried a hip throw, the person being thrown would simply pull out the hip thrower's exposed short sword and stick it in him. The Gracie brothers, whom many feel do "Judo" and not Ju Jutsu (that is a big argument in certain martial communities), adapted the techniques to Brazilian culture, which was very machismo, and much like the school yard when I was growing up.

It does not mean these adaptations are not effective. Actually believe it, or not, the martial art where most severe injuries are sustained is Aikido. Lol can you believe that? It is because of the falls and Sankyo wrist locks. But people fight the way they train and while violence is, by its very nature, random, unpredictable, and usually at the spur of the moment, people train for an ordered encounter. Rory Miller has a story about this that I live by: So a friend tells him to get out of this choke hold and it takes a bit but he manages...His friend informs him that there is no way to escape that hold. Miller states: "I apologized and told him next time I would know better."

The point is, when we concern ourselves with how to combat real violent intentions, we do two ****** things: I see this first one on Youtube all the time and reamed some bald guys out about it lol. The setup is these guys take a technique a woman did and do it with one of their girl... They don't even do it correctly but state that the technique would never work and that the woman should learn to just do MMA and Box. meanwhile the girl they are using, is passive and agrees. The whole gestault is "you cannot win." Unless you can punch someone in the face like a man, and be submissive to a man like in this video.

People who train attack dogs will tell you how ****** this is...You have got to teach people to have confidence and to try with all their efforts, that they can win and not to depend on any technique until they are right psychologically. ALL technique is naught if the mind is not ready to fight ferociously. I know it sounds bad but training women and dogs is remarkably similar: You have to establish that they cannot lose. Just as you let the dog win with pads, til the command to stop is issued, you put a "bad guy" in a padded outfit and have him progressively attack the woman with more force as she always finds a way to win in the end, until she is comfortable fighting as hard as she can with no hesitation. Now she is comfortable fighting, it is a start.

To this day I will not seriously train a woman in self defense in my system until they go through a "bulletman" type course, where they learn to feel comfortable fighting. when they do this we can now train in techniques, weapons, etc.

The other thing people do is teach crap. That will never end unfortunately.

[QueensburyRules]

Different level of the game... You don't like the b@st@rd maker I get it...If all his progeny were in the ring the other fighter could not even stand...on one leg! But you tend to exxagerate er...a bit? I like the Usyk, lets see how funny he thinks it is when he gets hit in the mouth so hard he can taste the chrome bubbles he sees..Maybe he perseveres, and maybe its a rougher road than you imagine. Hes game and time will tell us.

- -Time has already told us that Usyk is a better hvy.

He'd have to go 10-28 in his remaining yrs to be worse than Field, but I doubt he's even around 5 yrs from now much less the 15 needed for that.

Context is everything!

[QueensburyRules]

Yeah, Langford was bigger and had a bigger punch. Maybe, just maybe, he was a better pure-boxer than Walker. And we can say Walker wasn't his best against Schmeling. But I really don't see a Loughran-like performance from Langford. He tries to KO Max and gets murked for the effort. Easy night for Schmeling.

- -Recken welter Sam up to hvy KOs Max post haste. Maybe in a 10 fight series Max scores a decision.

Luv Max, and yeah, did a number on ill prepared Louis, but Joe whoops him the other 10x.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I don't agree about Marciano but the general point made I concede. With one Caveat Just want to see how Usyk does when he fights one of the true talented big boys.

You know what is great about logical fallicies? They work in the very crevices of our thoughts, and often enough we can't see them. So... what if I told you that European boxing, master teachers, were writing about how stiff the European fighters were, compared to the Americans (this is true for what it is worth), back in the 1890's? and that European fighters could not hit well (language at the time) because they would never use the rear power hand...

Here is what I am essentially asking you to do: take a good prejudice and not one of those bad ones! How silly and illogical is that to ask of someone? So Kudos, you are absolutely correct on that point.

Regarding martial arts and combat. The field has its very own rabbit holes lol. You want to catch a read from Don Draeger for some great insights... Here is something to remember that is of the utmost importance if you appreciate my insights. People are famously misled about what constitutes combat. Another great author to read who I suspect you would enjoy is Rory Miller. I mention him because of this very attitude. Miller is to my mind the most sober and realistic proponent of how combat works, and he studies a classical Japanese Martial Art. My studies include a lot of work with classical Japanese Martial arts...So what is the connection?

Life and death combat is recorded in these arts. The movements and techniques often look antiquated and even silly unless you know what to look for. The KoRyu arts of Japan were formed from battlefield encounters where the stronger arts persevered and the weaker arts became extinct because their founders and students were killed. Success, on the other hand was recorded dilligently in documents, and there was a procedure for passing these documents down to others (Kudan).

What people did was to take parts of these systems and adapt them to their own hermetically sealed purposes. So for example, Judo has parts of Ju Jutsu in it that work well for having a contest. On a battle field if a Samurai had tried a hip throw, the person being thrown would simply pull out the hip thrower's exposed short sword and stick it in him. The Gracie brothers, whom many feel do "Judo" and not Ju Jutsu (that is a big argument in certain martial communities), adapted the techniques to Brazilian culture, which was very machismo, and much like the school yard when I was growing up.

It does not mean these adaptations are not effective. Actually believe it, or not, the martial art where most severe injuries are sustained is Aikido. Lol can you believe that? It is because of the falls and Sankyo wrist locks. But people fight the way they train and while violence is, by its very nature, random, unpredictable, and usually at the spur of the moment, people train for an ordered encounter. Rory Miller has a story about this that I live by: So a friend tells him to get out of this choke hold and it takes a bit but he manages...His friend informs him that there is no way to escape that hold. Miller states: "I apologized and told him next time I would know better."

The point is, when we concern ourselves with how to combat real violent intentions, we do two ****** things: I see this first one on Youtube all the time and reamed some bald guys out about it lol. The setup is these guys take a technique a woman did and do it with one of their girl... They don't even do it correctly but state that the technique would never work and that the woman should learn to just do MMA and Box. meanwhile the girl they are using, is passive and agrees. The whole gestault is "you cannot win." Unless you can punch someone in the face like a man, and be submissive to a man like in this video.

People who train attack dogs will tell you how ****** this is...You have got to teach people to have confidence and to try with all their efforts, that they can win and not to depend on any technique until they are right psychologically. ALL technique is naught if the mind is not ready to fight ferociously. I know it sounds bad but training women and dogs is remarkably similar: You have to establish that they cannot lose. Just as you let the dog win with pads, til the command to stop is issued, you put a "bad guy" in a padded outfit and have him progressively attack the woman with more force as she always finds a way to win in the end, until she is comfortable fighting as hard as she can with no hesitation. Now she is comfortable fighting, it is a start.

To this day I will not seriously train a woman in self defense in my system until they go through a "bulletman" type course, where they learn to feel comfortable fighting. when they do this we can now train in techniques, weapons, etc.

The other thing people do is teach crap. That will never end unfortunately.

Well said.

But I'd say my sisters were more ferocious than almost any kid I ever Wrestled with or coached, and almost any dog I trained. I am glad I don't have to live in the same state as them.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Recken welter Sam up to hvy KOs Max post haste. Maybe in a 10 fight series Max scores a decision.

Luv Max, and yeah, did a number on ill prepared Louis, but Joe whoops him the other 10x.

Sam looks great going savage on guys who don't know what they are doing. But Max hadn't fought anyone that bad since leaving the Amateurs.

Seriously, Sam is going to get set-up, and laid out.


Louis wasn't necessarily ill-prepared, either. Actually, he was winning that fight, as I recall. And he was definitely fighting better than Langford ever did.

I get it: the narrative is that Louis was still green, and Schmeling was lucky. That doesn't jive with reality at all, though. Louis was already in his prime, and his offense was nearly vacuum-sealed. He had a minor flaw. Max, who was past his prime, had one last salvo.

Can you imagine a modern Heavyweight looking as good as Louis did that night? Think of the fan-fare it would garner! Sure, not Louis at his absolute best, but already one of the best fighters we'd ever see offensively.

Max was past his prime and beat Louis. I, too, favor the best Louis vs. the best Schmeling, but Schmeling's win against Louis was no fluke. Not even close.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Just watched Stribiling and Schmelling. Intersting that someone on that thread (Not me) mentions that Young S fought out of the older style while Max the newer. Just never had seen tape of Stribiling, he is an excellent fighter, and fought forever! Thanks for the heads up Rusty here is the fight as I saw it on Youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ5POklZEXw

I will think about how Stribling compares to Sam. What a life that guy had!!!

The way I see it, Sam was a little bigger, and Stribling was a little more refined. Sam went around starching bigger men than himself, but was effectively a Heavyweight, too. Stribling topped out as a Light Heavyweight. But the division had entered the modern era. Apparently, Tunney ducked him. Loughran had recently defeated Greb when he first lost to Stribling. Delaney, Slattery, Rosenbloom, Levinsky, McTigue, Risko - all scalps that hung from Stribling's mantle.

Langford never shared the ring with man as good as one of them, let alone scored a win. (He certainly lost to far worse). And needed considerable size/age advantage to pull off his greatest wins. He also needed more time in the ring to rack up his record - unlike Stribling who died entering into his prime.

Langford tells a better story for the modern audience. And for people who don't understand martial arts, it's more impressive watching him wail away on oversized and overmatching opponents.