Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[Rusty Tromboni]

Sullivan ducked blacks

Just like Marciano built his career on the corpses of Black fighters whose careers had effectively ended years before.

At least Sullivan could be proud of his competition.

[travestyny]

Looks like I hit a nerve.

Are you feeling guilty/undeserving of the sacrifices White soldiers made for you and your family? You don't have to.

You hit a nerve?

I've been laughing at you this entire time, and watching you dig away at that grave.

But at least I taught you something, right?

[billeau2]

Good post! I definitely enjoyed the read.

There's just one thing that I want to point out.

The intimation, in my estimation, was that Jackson ducked Sully. That is what Rusty intimated when he proclaimed that it was Jackson who actually declined an offer from Sully. The thread title was stated in a neutral way and left it up for people to make up their own mind.

Turns out that not only was Rusty unable to back up his claim (which I'm convinced was 100% bullshlt), but information here posted directly from Sully proves that it is 100% false, as he himself said he never had any plans of fighting Jackson at all, other than a BS non-title fight, private room offer.

I don't respect a poster that will blatantly make up lies about another fighter in an attempt to blemish their legacy or to beef up the legacy of another fighter, especially when the motivation is racial, as it clearly is here. You can read Rusty's posts yourself and determine that nothing he says about black fighters should ever be believed when he clearly has such a strong bias.

The guy actually sat at his computer and typed (exact quotation) "outside of the ring, Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs. Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods."

If you have to refer to mob violence and refer to little girls being escorted into recently desegregated schools, or residents being escorted out of "Black Wall Street" after it was burned to the ground to attempt to prove some sort of inferiority in black athletes, then the simple fact of the matter is you have some serious, deep rooted racial issues.

But again, the point here was for Rusty to step up and prove his account of the story. He failed.

I suspect I have a similar "tolerance" to those statements as you do. As a matter of fact when I first started posting here I was genuinely suprised that people would root for a fighter based on their race.

The key difference to me is when a fighter interjects race into a discussion where it does not belong, and when race is on the table in a discussion. And that is simply my own boundaries, they are not right, or wrong.

Also, when it becomes acrimonious people will all say things they know will "be a hit" so to speak.

[travestyny]

I suspect I have a similar "tolerance" to those statements as you do. As a matter of fact when I first started posting here I was genuinely suprised that people would root for a fighter based on their race.

The key difference to me is when a fighter interjects race into a discussion where it does not belong, and when race is on the table in a discussion. And that is simply my own boundaries, they are not right, or wrong.

Also, when it becomes acrimonious people will all say things they know will "be a hit" so to speak.

In some ways, I do regret making this thread, and I've been hoping that it gets closed. I think Nelson is enjoying a vacation and he's going to be PISSED at me when he returns! lol. My bad, BattlingNelson

But the ONLY reason I kind of regret making this thread is because the longer it goes, the more of that idiot's disgusting comments we have to see typed out.

[billeau2]

Careful. With posts like this you might attract a stalker. Not that I mind getting her off my hands.


I think you summed it up well that Sullivan wasn't perfectly prepared for the transition. As a bare-knuckle fighter, as you mention, he was incredibly competent.
I know they took judo throws out of Kickboxing - was it because guys like Wallace were too proficient with them? Benny Urqudez schooled a Thai boxer using Judo. The same would have been true for any Boxer lacking knowledge of defense in the clinch.

I also don't think Sullivan viewed any man a an intellectual threat. He himself stated he did well in school, but wanted to be a pro-athlete. He then, like Dempsey after him, became a celebrity, associated with the theatre. He definitely made it in America. Before Dempsey and Ruth, there was Sullivan. jackson died an unknown.

Sullivan did in fact do well in school while attending. It was typical in those days to leave school for other responsibilities. Sullivan actually played baseball for a while lol.

One of my favorite people who write about martial arts is Rory Miller, a self protection guy. To his way of thinking our curse, and our saving grace...is that we train extremely well per the circumstances we deal with. Miller is a prison guard. So usually people will gloss over the differences in how someone trained to be champion. I think we all assume that Sullivan, Corbet, jackson, etc were all tough and had good genetics to become a world class fighter. BUT that is alas, the start and not the finish.

A Navy Seal was once talking about the different types of bad@sses that took the Seal course...Rodeo guys, fighters, Daredevils, Bouncers, etc...And just like becoming a professional fighter, not all these guys can make it through. So we start out with a bunch of very tough individuals who are strong, tough, and have good lung capacity, and other genetics, but what makes that extra "push" that allows Corbett, for example to win, and the other Irish lads who wanted to win not succeed? This is where I think we have to go to Miller's point of view...

You have to master and train for what you are going to perform. That takes intelligence. There is no such thing as a brute attaining a heavyweight crown because, there are a lot of brutish men who can hit hard, take a punch, and determined to win.

The corollary to this Rusty is, IF you train in the specifics to master the task at hand, your training will, necessarily be somewhat limited. As a bouncer, if I train to hit a guy on the chin tip every time, that punch will be perfect (within reason), but i will not necessarily have the skill of a boxer to variate that punch accurately if the target is not available. In other words in a perfect world, when first delivering that punch to an unruly, I would be the bouncer...the minute that unruly moved off line to that punch and put his hands up, I would be the boxer.

You can see where I am going with this. Sullivan was very smart and very good principally at fighting bare knuckle fighting. As you said the art was similar to MMA. I would go one step further and say it probably was also similar to Mexican boxing theories involving using the hook as a leading blow. I am sure Sullivan made alterations in his game for gloves, which he did (as you said) advocate, but most of his experience and training was in a style where the gloves were not used.

So with Sullivan the fact that he held together, tavern hopping and all, after many punishing battles primarily bare knuckled battles, and the fact that he advocated and made an adjustment to gloved fighting is a testiment to his intelligence. Most Thai fighters, by comparison have a fighting career not one fourth as long.

Wallace first encountered Judo when, as a wrestler he bested a Judo expert. He did study the art after that and become proficient in it. The Jet was a fantastic fighter, and at that time Thai fighters were the guys to beat. The biggest problem fighting the Thai guys, was, and is... the kick. The punches are relatively easy for boxers to deal with because they are linear and when distance closes, the elbows are used with the knees. No head movement, no angles. Pacquio actually fights like a Thai guy lol. But the kick is like an ax.

If you watch some of the early fights, the kickboxers are in agony as the Thai guys hit the legs. I have felt those kicks, when I did some training with the Dog Brothers, I fought a Thai guy and it sucks! lol.

[ShoulderRoll]

Now facts are racist? Show me how anything I said is untrue. Prove it. Your feelings don't change history.


Seriously, this is how you handle life?

I am happy I gave you a break from protesting Target's bathroom policy. But don't you think you should just grow up?

You didn't post facts. Just a bunch of racist drivel.

There's no need for anyone to have to put up with that.

[billeau2]

In some ways, I do regret making this thread, and I've been hoping that it gets closed. I think Nelson is enjoying a vacation and he's going to be PISSED at me when he returns! lol. My bad, BattlingNelson

But the ONLY reason I kind of regret making this thread is because the longer it goes, the more of that idiot's disgusting comments we have to see typed out.

Its all good. The way any community tolerated dissention and differences is a testiment to its strength.

Also the thread has allowed some interesting points to be made about jackson...Apparently no other than Jack Johnson made a pilgrimage to Jackson's grave out of respect. To get the respect of JJ was no small measure!

Also talk about cycling back to where we started: Today when someone wants to practice boxing they can go into a gym of some sort. When Jackson taught in San Francisco, the way a lot of boxing was taught and promoted, was in health clubs. They would sponser fights and teach lessons. San francisco at that time was heading to be a very big city...this was before the big quake in 1908 and the South of Market area was very similar to New York City Manhattan particularly.

One will see that a lot of fighters came out of San Francisco at this time. Not necessarily all top teir champs, but good solid fighters. It seems that Corbet who taught in the area, jackson, and hard scrabble areas like Oakland were integral parts of boxing development....That is until the city was leveled.

here are a few and some links for anyone interested:

Jimmy Britt who Fought Joe Gans among others.
Jim Corbett of course
Bobo olsom
Abe Attell
I believe Gunboat Smith fought out of Oakland...
https://slate.com/human-interest/201...francisco.html

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/articl...ng-2920636.php

[travestyny]

Its all good. The way any community tolerated dissention and differences is a testiment to its strength.

Also the thread has allowed some interesting points to be made about jackson...Apparently no other than Jack Johnson made a pilgrimage to Jackson's grave out of respect. To get the respect of JJ was no small measure!

Also talk about cycling back to where we started: Today when someone wants to practice boxing they can go into a gym of some sort. When Jackson taught in San Francisco, the way a lot of boxing was taught and promoted, was in health clubs. They would sponser fights and teach lessons. San francisco at that time was heading to be a very big city...this was before the big quake in 1908 and the South of Market area was very similar to New York City Manhattan particularly.

One will see that a lot of fighters came out of San Francisco at this time. Not necessarily all top teir champs, but good solid fighters. It seems that Corbet who taught in the area, jackson, and hard scrabble areas like Oakland were integral parts of boxing development....That is until the city was leveled.

here are a few and some links for anyone interested:

Jimmy Britt who Fought Joe Gans among others.
Jim Corbett of course
Bobo olsom
Abe Attell
I believe Gunboat Smith fought out of Oakland...
https://slate.com/human-interest/201...francisco.html

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/articl...ng-2920636.php

Man, awesome information!!!! I'm going to look more into this! Thanks!

The mug shots are an interesting twist It would kinda be cool if they still photographed fighters that way!

[DreamFighter]

Facts are not racist. Unfortunate, sure, but not "racist". Prove to me what I said was wrong.

And believe me, I think what happened was wrong. But my personal opinion doesn't matter. We are discussing FACTS.

For all we know - what probably happens - SUllivan starches Jackson, like he did everyone else - like McGovern starched Gans, and Lavigne out-classed Walcott. We can't treat Jackson any differently just because he was a charity case.


As for your lies about me on Corbett:
I explicitly stated Corbett was a great fighter. So how can it be that I am trashing him, too!?!?!? He was green when he fought Jackson... he improved from there, and would have beaten Jackson when at his best.





so you think I was alive in the 1890's, discriminating against Peter Jackson?

you're warped, kiddo.

hey rusty why u denying ur racism when its been shown 2 u point blank?

dont dig the hole, just apologise and u might not get banned.

[BattlingNelson]

Trollboni is out. Again.