Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[Rusty Tromboni]

I wanted to mention one more thing that is important: The reason why one would not want to lead with a committed jab as a bare knuckle fighter is because if i wanted to break your hand all i have to do is catch your jab on my elbow point. Also, if you are firing that jab? I will let you hit me in the forehead under certain conditions, another way to smash the hand.

IF however I come from the side with a hooking punch, the worse I will get is the side of your arm and it will not threaten my hand, and...if I catch you in the head, it is to the side, where the temple, and the jawline is. the kidneys are also a target with a hooking circular punch.

The straight shots would be good for once one has the opponent going backwards. Even their uppercuts were range finders... again because at this angle the hand is more protected.

So when people see depictions of Sullivan slugging away with circular punches....Well he was no dope!! Those guys only had to experience trying to fight with a broken hand once to know...and most of their corner pharmecopia was devoted to trying to harden the hands.

Yeah, A lot of guys were worried about throwing ANY punches early in MMA. We had the gloves, but there was the still belief that there wasn't enough padding to throw punches w/ full force. A lot ofthe injuries guys in the UFC were suffering wer, supposedly, going unreported.

Now fighters have become more comfortable using a full range of punches, and lots of them. But the jab is definitely a strange punch. Without the 5 oz. gloves, I dunno if we would have ever seen it used.

I just did. It went from "Sullivan offered him the fight. Why didn't Jackson take it" to "Sullivan realized he was too far past it."


So which is it?




You wouldn't know a fact if it smacked you between the eyes

The facts are simple. Sully was heavyweight champion. Jackson wanted a fight. Sully said...."Nah, but we can do it in private for $20,000.

You, being the squirming little cvnt that you are, tried to change it into Sully wasn't a professional fighter at the time. LMAO

"A strong indication he was never as good as either man" is called an opinion, you dumb fvvck.


The fact that HE WOULDN'T FIGHT HIM BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK makes it pretty clear that it was about racism, you dumb fvvck.


Did you get that?



Another opinion.



And Corbett must have been a novice when he beat Sully, huh? Did Sully want a fight, or not? He obviously did because he fought Corbett. But he wouldn't fight Jackson. lol.

Champions fight or retire. Simple as that. Stop squirming.



What does that matter? It was YOU who claimed that Jackson was ducking Sully's offer. Now you are all on some, stop picking on the old man bullshlt. Are you starting to understand how your story changed, Hmmm?????



Opinions are not facts, moron. I don't care who you thought would have won, or who you thought would have won in their prime. The thread was very clear.

YOU CLAIMED THAT JACKSON DUCKED SULLY'S OFFER. NOW YOU CLAIM THAT JACKSON WAS PICKING ON POOR LITTLE SULLY.

That's a 180 degree turn around!




Oh yes I can.



Says so right there. All because he was black. If he were white, he would have fought, right? Right???????? lol





Oh shut your dumb ass up. Everyone knows by now that you are a complete moron, and a racist one at that. I doubt you have a brain at all and that's why you're getting dragged around this thread by your neck. Keep it up and I'll do the same about Tunney.





Says the guy who is lying about an imaginary offer from Sullivan, who himself said he would NEVER fight a black man after becoming champion. LIAR!!!!




No problem, you moron!



If you are saying Tunney refused to fight blacks because they are considered inferior, what the fvvck do you think that means, moron?

Are you saying that he believed....whites were superior?????? Do you have a brain??????? Seriously?



Well that's what I'm talking about. Post up his opinions on race and we can see if he was a racist or not. We all know that we can't believe what you say, because you'll just state that you read it on AOL once upon a time

Oh look, our own version of Maxine Walters is talking in circles again, ranting with herself.

Look at Sullivan's record and personal biography - where was Jackson when Sullivan was in his prime? Where was Sullivan when Jackson finally came to the United States?

Did Jackson EVER have the reputation that Sullivan and Corbett had? Yes, or no. It's a yes or no question, so it is factual.
Sullivan was starching everyone they put in front of him. Corbett has gone down in history as one of the great innovators of the sport. He was the Willie Pep of his day.
There's nothing in Jackson's record to suggest he was their equal. Nothing in print to suggest it, either.

You may not understand facts. You may not like them. But that does not make them opinions.

Rusty you are full of shyt - corbett fought sully 15 months after jackson.

He didnt jump from novice to prime in 8 months and just one fight.


I'm not reading anymore of your lies, you are a racist, sort it out and then come back.

Corbett fought a severely faded Sullivan under new rules (for the latter). No one disputes that. But somehow you know better?

I get it. When life gets too difficult, you cry racist, and it's your jail out of free card. Why have dignity, and self-respect when you can have White people fix your problems for you, right? And now you understand why people of Sullivan's era held the opinion they had.

Oh, and one more thing for the record. I will stand up and vouch for this thread, in case anyone feels a type of way about why I said I created it.

These boxers gave blood sweat and tears for us. Sure they were paid handsomely, but they also pay a big price.

This is the history section! If you say something that will affect a fighters legacy, be prepared to be called out on it! And be prepared to come with your proof. We owe them at least that much!

OK, Rahab the Righteous. We totally believe this mea culpa. Totally. Not su****ious at all.

So if it's not about your obsession with me, why is my cat missing?

There should be. I know I used it on him a long time ago.

I explain this to all my kids.

you have two choices:
1) what you say.
2) deciding to say anything, or not.

You don't get to chose how people respond. So, if you're easily butt-hurt, maybe don't talk of think about what you say before you say it.

[DreamFighter]

Yeah, A lot of guys were worried about throwing ANY punches early in MMA. We had the gloves, but there was the still belief that there wasn't enough padding to throw punches w/ full force. A lot ofthe injuries guys in the UFC were suffering wer, supposedly, going unreported.

Now fighters have become more comfortable using a full range of punches, and lots of them. But the jab is definitely a strange punch. Without the 5 oz. gloves, I dunno if we would have ever seen it used.

get a grip and if you can stop with the racism, you been told by a lot fo people now.



Oh look, our own version of Maxine Walters is talking in circles again, ranting with herself.

Look at Sullivan's record and personal biography - where was Jackson when Sullivan was in his prime? Where was Sullivan when Jackson finally came to the United States?

Did Jackson EVER have the reputation that Sullivan and Corbett had? Yes, or no. It's a yes or no question, so it is factual.
Sullivan was starching everyone they put in front of him. Corbett has gone down in history as one of the great innovators of the sport. He was the Willie Pep of his day.
There's nothing in Jackson's record to suggest he was their equal. Nothing in print to suggest it, either.

You may not understand facts. You may not like them. But that does not make them opinions.



Corbett fought a severely faded Sullivan under new rules (for the latter). No one disputes that. But somehow you know better?

I get it. When life gets too difficult, you cry racist, and it's your jail out of free card. Why have dignity, and self-respect when you can have White people fix your problems for you, right? And now you understand why people of Sullivan's era held the opinion they had.



OK, Rahab the Righteous. We totally believe this mea culpa. Totally. Not su****ious at all.

So if it's not about your obsession with me, why is my cat missing?





I explain this to all my kids.

you have two choices:
1) what you say.
2) deciding to say anything, or not.

You don't get to chose how people respond. So, if you're easily butt-hurt, maybe don't talk of think about what you say before you say it.

hey rusty u even forgot what you wrote....you were arguing jackson fought novice corbett, and now its about sully being faded which noone is interested in.

u r too far gone man.

[travestyny]

Yeah, A lot of guys were worried about throwing ANY punches early in MMA. We had the gloves, but there was the still belief that there wasn't enough padding to throw punches w/ full force. A lot ofthe injuries guys in the UFC were suffering wer, supposedly, going unreported.

Now fighters have become more comfortable using a full range of punches, and lots of them. But the jab is definitely a strange punch. Without the 5 oz. gloves, I dunno if we would have ever seen it used.




Oh look, our own version of Maxine Walters is talking in circles again, ranting with herself.

Look at Sullivan's record and personal biography - where was Jackson when Sullivan was in his prime? Where was Sullivan when Jackson finally came to the United States?

Did Jackson EVER have the reputation that Sullivan and Corbett had? Yes, or no. It's a yes or no question, so it is factual.
Sullivan was starching everyone they put in front of him. Corbett has gone down in history as one of the great innovators of the sport. He was the Willie Pep of his day.
There's nothing in Jackson's record to suggest he was their equal. Nothing in print to suggest it, either.

You may not understand facts. You may not like them. But that does not make them opinions.



Corbett fought a severely faded Sullivan under new rules (for the latter). No one disputes that. But somehow you know better?

I get it. When life gets too difficult, you cry racist, and it's your jail out of free card. Why have dignity, and self-respect when you can have White people fix your problems for you, right? And now you understand why people of Sullivan's era held the opinion they had.



OK, Rahab the Righteous. We totally believe this mea culpa. Totally. Not su****ious at all.

So if it's not about your obsession with me, why is my cat missing?





I explain this to all my kids.

you have two choices:
1) what you say.
2) deciding to say anything, or not.

You don't get to chose how people respond. So, if you're easily butt-hurt, maybe don't talk of think about what you say before you say it.

Just stop already. YOU were the one that claimed it was Jackson doing the ducking, and now it's "but but but....Sully's reputation was better and he was old."


I've already gotten the information I needed and exposed that you're a lying twat. You can buzz off now.

[billeau2]

This thread

There is no right or wrong, no gotcha in a thread like this. It became personal a long time ago and when considering the issue as a group, we can shed light, or not.

I feel like right now in this section we have a great group. Some of the topics and efforts are rewarding to say the least. I look forward to all the regular posters that weigh in here.

When a thread is started that involves a racial component then there will be a range of perspectives and some of them might insult others... What someone like Travesty, or ironickly enough, I myself, was raised to consider racist talk...being raised in New York City, is very different than what a person raised in, for example, Omaha Nebraska might consider racist. Of course, Travesty is a Black man and I am a White man, and that makes for many differences as well and I would not want to neglect to mention that fact.

Why Omaha Nebraska? We have property out West and one of my pleasures is occasionally being able to drive the country...Maybe to take some stuff back, or because flying has become such a hassle these days...I can make it from San Francisco to the East Coast in 4 days... Have become immune to driving long hauls lol... Anyway on one of these trips My older son accompanied me. I have had both my boys come along, it is again, a real treat to see the country because this country is big and there is a lot of stuff a New Yorker used to wonder about back when I would look up towards the Bronx from East Harlem and wonder, what was after the Bronx? and keep going until arriving in China I guess lol.

So, on this day me and my boy got a place to catch some winks in Nebraska. We went for a walk when we passed this group of 20-30 year old guys...Cowboy looking types. There were about 5 of them and as we passed they yelled out really loud "****!!" Man in took a lot not to pull out my blade and cut the yeller's tongue out...I am in my fifties and know enough about combat not to take on 5 guys, my kid was young, and I know how to use a blade very well, having trained in those arts for years, as some of you can surmise from my posts. So I was not going to get in a situation where I could put some hurt and take some hurt, and with a 13 year old at the time, I most certainly was not going to risk my kid's safety.

I should also mention that I look like a big guy, and my son is thin like my wife...but we did not look like two gay guys walking around, you will have to trust me on that one... I grabbed myself, restrained myself so to speak... My second impulse was to ask why a father with his son looked threatening, and ask these yahoos if perhaps their dad didn't spend time with them, because it was obvious they were looking for trouble. So what I sort of had to do was understand that these idiots in their world view, a man did not take a walk with his son, and I had to keep walking.

Now here's my point: after walking around a bit, I soon realized that we were not in a bad area, but the area was a sort of Hotel/Motel zone. There was probably some sex trade going on and even if these guys were trouble makers, etc...There was some logic to their insulting behavior. I didn't like it, I certainly wanted to handle it, but begrudgingly at least there was some local logic to what these guys were being ugly about.

To illustrate this point here is another one: when I met my lovely Cajun wife, we have been married now for about 20 years and while she is from the Lafayette Louisiana area, we both love New Orleans (who doesn't right?). So her friend wants to take us to this really great breakfast place, the Cameilla Grill. Do any of you know about this place? So along we go...turns out that the whole schtickt" to the Cameilla Grill is antebellum Southern ways. The waiters are all black and dress up like what can only be described as House ******, to a Northerner like myself. I walked in there took one look, and walked out... I could not believe this place! I still would not feel comfortable eating in a place like that, but I have learned so much more about the culture of the deep south since that day...

There are just things that you have to accept and other things that are noble. As a Bar Manager down there for a while, the owner, a white aristocrat and his family, were treated very different than I was...The workers at the place adored me, and I adored them. and they sort of put me in a different category..BUT this owner would do things like, pay a college tuition bill for a worker, advance pay to worker and make sure they had things they needed....all things you would never find an employer do where I had been raised.

Posting behavior imo is the same bag: There is a wide range of attitudes that go into posts. When we have a thread and race is brought into it, to me, that is one thing. When we have a thread like this, which By the way, I have no problem with, But I do think we have to accept that as a group, when there is a racial component to the thread, thick skin alert.

This thread was from the start, about race. The intimation was that jackson was ducked and because Sullivan brought up race, then necessarily race was an issue in this debate. Even if Sullivan did not bring up race... It would be considered as a possibility here. The net reaction was to polarize posters. lets step back a bit and deconstruct some key points about this issue shall we?

lets keep in mind that Jackson was, a well educated man with a trade, who came from a good family, a man who was raised by a "Freeman." Jackson was also a citizen of the West Indies and might have had Australian citizenship as well...I do not know if he did have dual citizenship.

Sullivan was educated up to parochial school, came from parents who like a lot of Irish parents of the time, wanted a priest in the family. Sullivan was, on the whole, the less educated, less economically endowed of the two fighters. That becomes important here because Irish and Black men were in competition when it came to being less marginalized in the United States. This was partially due to the Civil War where the Irish were angry that they were sent from the boat to the field, to fight for something that did not affect them. They felt that Blacks had a reason to fight...obviously regarding slavery practices.

One possible reason for Sullivan's perceived acrimony might have been this situation. Like those yahoos who screamed at me and my boy... we can kind of look at Sullivan a little differently. jackson actually had more socio-economic advantages and was not subject to the same national forces that Blacks in America would be subject. This is why these things get so complicated. We can never know exactly what Sullivan or Jackson thought, but, if we have a correct perception of the players in this situation, it at least sets things up so we can look at motives correctly.

When we look at Sullivan he is often perceived as a brutish figure, while Jackson is looked at as having refined ability. I think this perception comes partially because Jackson taught boxing in San Francisco and by all accounts was an excellent teacher: Here is a guy with a very good education, a top notch pugalist, why shouldn't he be an excellent teacher?

What about Sullivan? John L was very strong for sure, but for him to be succesful as a bare knuckle fighter he had to have many skills and there is evidence of these skills. The Irish stereo type is such that we always hear about his trainers having to "pick up John L from the Tavern sigh...." In fact one of Sullivan's primary trainers, William Muldoon was a leading Greco Roman wrestler and athlete in the world. So Sullivan was in effect being trained by one of the best trainers in the world. Boxing back then was intimitely tied to the grapple, and to having resistance to punishment accomplished through being in great shape no doubt!

My own take on this is that John L Sullivan considered it an act of pride that he never fought a Black Fighter (whether he did, or did not). I think prevailing Civil War Attitudes had a lot to do with this frankly.

As far as skills and who was better? One would have to know what the competition was like in Australia and England that Jackson faced. Corbett is an interesting piece of the puzzle as well. The problem I have with using Corbett as a common denominator so to speak, is that there is a good chance that Sullivan was a much better fighter with no gloves. Corbett, on the other hand, fought his fights with gloves.

Jackson fought with gloves as well and a lot of his training that influenced him was done in Australia when he won the heavyweight title there in 1886 his trainer was Jack Dowridge, an Aussie. he certainly did well when he fought outside of his country but...its hard to figure exactly how his training and competition compared to Sullivan's.

So guys like Ray said..."Don't fight lol" everyone on this thread is a poster who I enjoy posting with, I hate to see such polarity here.

[travestyny]

There is no right or wrong, no gotcha in a thread like this. It became personal a long time ago and when considering the issue as a group, we can shed light, or not.

I feel like right now in this section we have a great group. Some of the topics and efforts are rewarding to say the least. I look forward to all the regular posters that weigh in here.

When a thread is started that involves a racial component then there will be a range of perspectives and some of them might insult others... What someone like Travesty, or ironickly enough, I myself, was raised to consider racist talk...being raised in New York City, is very different than what a person raised in, for example, Omaha Nebraska might consider racist. Of course, Travesty is a Black man and I am a White man, and that makes for many differences as well and I would not want to neglect to mention that fact.

Why Omaha Nebraska? We have property out West and one of my pleasures is occasionally being able to drive the country...Maybe to take some stuff back, or because flying has become such a hassle these days...I can make it from San Francisco to the East Coast in 4 days... Have become immune to driving long hauls lol... Anyway on one of these trips My older son accompanied me. I have had both my boys come along, it is again, a real treat to see the country because this country is big and there is a lot of stuff a New Yorker used to wonder about back when I would look up towards the Bronx from East Harlem and wonder, what was after the Bronx? and keep going until arriving in China I guess lol.

So, on this day me and my boy got a place to catch some winks in Nebraska. We went for a walk when we passed this group of 20-30 year old guys...Cowboy looking types. There were about 5 of them and as we passed they yelled out really loud "****!!" Man in took a lot not to pull out my blade and cut the yeller's tongue out...I am in my fifties and know enough about combat not to take on 5 guys, my kid was young, and I know how to use a blade very well, having trained in those arts for years, as some of you can surmise from my posts. So I was not going to get in a situation where I could put some hurt and take some hurt, and with a 13 year old at the time, I most certainly was not going to risk my kid's safety.

I should also mention that I look like a big guy, and my son is thin like my wife...but we did not look like two gay guys walking around, you will have to trust me on that one... I grabbed myself, restrained myself so to speak... My second impulse was to ask why a father with his son looked threatening, and ask these yahoos if perhaps their dad didn't spend time with them, because it was obvious they were looking for trouble. So what I sort of had to do was understand that these idiots in their world view, a man did not take a walk with his son, and I had to keep walking.

Now here's my point: after walking around a bit, I soon realized that we were not in a bad area, but the area was a sort of Hotel/Motel zone. There was probably some sex trade going on and even if these guys were trouble makers, etc...There was some logic to their insulting behavior. I didn't like it, I certainly wanted to handle it, but begrudgingly at least there was some local logic to what these guys were being ugly about.

To illustrate this point here is another one: when I met my lovely Cajun wife, we have been married now for about 20 years and while she is from the Lafayette Louisiana area, we both love New Orleans (who doesn't right?). So her friend wants to take us to this really great breakfast place, the Cameilla Grill. Do any of you know about this place? So along we go...turns out that the whole schtickt" to the Cameilla Grill is antebellum Southern ways. The waiters are all black and dress up like what can only be described as House ******, to a Northerner like myself. I walked in there took one look, and walked out... I could not believe this place! I still would not feel comfortable eating in a place like that, but I have learned so much more about the culture of the deep south since that day...

There are just things that you have to accept and other things that are noble. As a Bar Manager down there for a while, the owner, a white aristocrat and his family, were treated very different than I was...The workers at the place adored me, and I adored them. and they sort of put me in a different category..BUT this owner would do things like, pay a college tuition bill for a worker, advance pay to worker and make sure they had things they needed....all things you would never find an employer do where I had been raised.

Posting behavior imo is the same bag: There is a wide range of attitudes that go into posts. When we have a thread and race is brought into it, to me, that is one thing. When we have a thread like this, which By the way, I have no problem with, But I do think we have to accept that as a group, when there is a racial component to the thread, thick skin alert.

This thread was from the start, about race. The intimation was that jackson was ducked and because Sullivan brought up race, then necessarily race was an issue in this debate. Even if Sullivan did not bring up race... It would be considered as a possibility here. The net reaction was to polarize posters. lets step back a bit and deconstruct some key points about this issue shall we?

lets keep in mind that Jackson was, a well educated man with a trade, who came from a good family, a man who was raised by a "Freeman." Jackson was also a citizen of the West Indies and might have had Australian citizenship as well...I do not know if he did have dual citizenship.

Sullivan was educated up to parochial school, came from parents who like a lot of Irish parents of the time, wanted a priest in the family. Sullivan was, on the whole, the less educated, less economically endowed of the two fighters. That becomes important here because Irish and Black men were in competition when it came to being less marginalized in the United States. This was partially due to the Civil War where the Irish were angry that they were sent from the boat to the field, to fight for something that did not affect them. They felt that Blacks had a reason to fight...obviously regarding slavery practices.

One possible reason for Sullivan's perceived acrimony might have been this situation. Like those yahoos who screamed at me and my boy... we can kind of look at Sullivan a little differently. jackson actually had more socio-economic advantages and was not subject to the same national forces that Blacks in America would be subject. This is why these things get so complicated. We can never know exactly what Sullivan or Jackson thought, but, if we have a correct perception of the players in this situation, it at least sets things up so we can look at motives correctly.

When we look at Sullivan he is often perceived as a brutish figure, while Jackson is looked at as having refined ability. I think this perception comes partially because Jackson taught boxing in San Francisco and by all accounts was an excellent teacher: Here is a guy with a very good education, a top notch pugalist, why shouldn't he be an excellent teacher?

What about Sullivan? John L was very strong for sure, but for him to be succesful as a bare knuckle fighter he had to have many skills and there is evidence of these skills. The Irish stereo type is such that we always hear about his trainers having to "pick up John L from the Tavern sigh...." In fact one of Sullivan's primary trainers, William Muldoon was a leading Greco Roman wrestler and athlete in the world. So Sullivan was in effect being trained by one of the best trainers in the world. Boxing back then was intimitely tied to the grapple, and to having resistance to punishment accomplished through being in great shape no doubt!

My own take on this is that John L Sullivan considered it an act of pride that he never fought a Black Fighter (whether he did, or did not). I think prevailing Civil War Attitudes had a lot to do with this frankly.

As far as skills and who was better? One would have to know what the competition was like in Australia and England that Jackson faced. Corbett is an interesting piece of the puzzle as well. The problem I have with using Corbett as a common denominator so to speak, is that there is a good chance that Sullivan was a much better fighter with no gloves. Corbett, on the other hand, fought his fights with gloves.

Jackson fought with gloves as well and a lot of his training that influenced him was done in Australia when he won the heavyweight title there in 1886 his trainer was Jack Dowridge, an Aussie. he certainly did well when he fought outside of his country but...its hard to figure exactly how his training and competition compared to Sullivan's.

So guys like Ray said..."Don't fight lol" everyone on this thread is a poster who I enjoy posting with, I hate to see such polarity here.

Good post! I definitely enjoyed the read.

There's just one thing that I want to point out.

The intimation, in my estimation, was that Jackson ducked Sully. That is what Rusty intimated when he proclaimed that it was Jackson who actually declined an offer from Sully. The thread title was stated in a neutral way and left it up for people to make up their own mind.

Turns out that not only was Rusty unable to back up his claim (which I'm convinced was 100% bullshlt), but information here posted directly from Sully proves that it is 100% false, as he himself said he never had any plans of fighting Jackson at all, other than a BS non-title fight, private room offer.

I don't respect a poster that will blatantly make up lies about another fighter in an attempt to blemish their legacy or to beef up the legacy of another fighter, especially when the motivation is racial, as it clearly is here. You can read Rusty's posts yourself and determine that nothing he says about black fighters should ever be believed when he clearly has such a strong bias.

The guy actually sat at his computer and typed (exact quotation) "outside of the ring, Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs. Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods."

If you have to refer to mob violence and refer to little girls being escorted into recently desegregated schools, or residents being escorted out of "Black Wall Street" after it was burned to the ground to attempt to prove some sort of inferiority in black athletes, then the simple fact of the matter is you have some serious, deep rooted racial issues.

But again, the point here was for Rusty to step up and prove his account of the story. He failed.

[Rusty Tromboni]

hey rusty u even forgot what you wrote....you were arguing jackson fought novice corbett, and now its about sully being faded which noone is interested in.

u r too far gone man.

I get it. Numbers aren't your thing.

But Corbett had 10 pro-fights to Jackson's 60.

On what planet is that even comparable? That's some Lomachenko Schyt.

Stick up your hands - that's 10 fingers you are looking at. Now, close and open your fist six times (that's 1 , 2 , 3, 4 , 5 , 6). Try again, if you lost count.

There was a huge disparity in experience. Corbett compensated with heart and intelligence. He was meant to be champion, Jackson was not. It's that simple.

[Rusty Tromboni]

There is no right or wrong, no gotcha in a thread like this. It became personal a long time ago and when considering the issue as a group, we can shed light, or not.

I feel like right now in this section we have a great group. Some of the topics and efforts are rewarding to say the least. I look forward to all the regular posters that weigh in here.

When a thread is started that involves a racial component then there will be a range of perspectives and some of them might insult others... What someone like Travesty, or ironickly enough, I myself, was raised to consider racist talk...being raised in New York City, is very different than what a person raised in, for example, Omaha Nebraska might consider racist. Of course, Travesty is a Black man and I am a White man, and that makes for many differences as well and I would not want to neglect to mention that fact.

Why Omaha Nebraska? We have property out West and one of my pleasures is occasionally being able to drive the country...Maybe to take some stuff back, or because flying has become such a hassle these days...I can make it from San Francisco to the East Coast in 4 days... Have become immune to driving long hauls lol... Anyway on one of these trips My older son accompanied me. I have had both my boys come along, it is again, a real treat to see the country because this country is big and there is a lot of stuff a New Yorker used to wonder about back when I would look up towards the Bronx from East Harlem and wonder, what was after the Bronx? and keep going until arriving in China I guess lol.

So, on this day me and my boy got a place to catch some winks in Nebraska. We went for a walk when we passed this group of 20-30 year old guys...Cowboy looking types. There were about 5 of them and as we passed they yelled out really loud "****!!" Man in took a lot not to pull out my blade and cut the yeller's tongue out...I am in my fifties and know enough about combat not to take on 5 guys, my kid was young, and I know how to use a blade very well, having trained in those arts for years, as some of you can surmise from my posts. So I was not going to get in a situation where I could put some hurt and take some hurt, and with a 13 year old at the time, I most certainly was not going to risk my kid's safety.

I should also mention that I look like a big guy, and my son is thin like my wife...but we did not look like two gay guys walking around, you will have to trust me on that one... I grabbed myself, restrained myself so to speak... My second impulse was to ask why a father with his son looked threatening, and ask these yahoos if perhaps their dad didn't spend time with them, because it was obvious they were looking for trouble. So what I sort of had to do was understand that these idiots in their world view, a man did not take a walk with his son, and I had to keep walking.

Now here's my point: after walking around a bit, I soon realized that we were not in a bad area, but the area was a sort of Hotel/Motel zone. There was probably some sex trade going on and even if these guys were trouble makers, etc...There was some logic to their insulting behavior. I didn't like it, I certainly wanted to handle it, but begrudgingly at least there was some local logic to what these guys were being ugly about.

To illustrate this point here is another one: when I met my lovely Cajun wife, we have been married now for about 20 years and while she is from the Lafayette Louisiana area, we both love New Orleans (who doesn't right?). So her friend wants to take us to this really great breakfast place, the Cameilla Grill. Do any of you know about this place? So along we go...turns out that the whole schtickt" to the Cameilla Grill is antebellum Southern ways. The waiters are all black and dress up like what can only be described as House ******, to a Northerner like myself. I walked in there took one look, and walked out... I could not believe this place! I still would not feel comfortable eating in a place like that, but I have learned so much more about the culture of the deep south since that day...

There are just things that you have to accept and other things that are noble. As a Bar Manager down there for a while, the owner, a white aristocrat and his family, were treated very different than I was...The workers at the place adored me, and I adored them. and they sort of put me in a different category..BUT this owner would do things like, pay a college tuition bill for a worker, advance pay to worker and make sure they had things they needed....all things you would never find an employer do where I had been raised.

Posting behavior imo is the same bag: There is a wide range of attitudes that go into posts. When we have a thread and race is brought into it, to me, that is one thing. When we have a thread like this, which By the way, I have no problem with, But I do think we have to accept that as a group, when there is a racial component to the thread, thick skin alert.

This thread was from the start, about race. The intimation was that jackson was ducked and because Sullivan brought up race, then necessarily race was an issue in this debate. Even if Sullivan did not bring up race... It would be considered as a possibility here. The net reaction was to polarize posters. lets step back a bit and deconstruct some key points about this issue shall we?

lets keep in mind that Jackson was, a well educated man with a trade, who came from a good family, a man who was raised by a "Freeman." Jackson was also a citizen of the West Indies and might have had Australian citizenship as well...I do not know if he did have dual citizenship.

Sullivan was educated up to parochial school, came from parents who like a lot of Irish parents of the time, wanted a priest in the family. Sullivan was, on the whole, the less educated, less economically endowed of the two fighters. That becomes important here because Irish and Black men were in competition when it came to being less marginalized in the United States. This was partially due to the Civil War where the Irish were angry that they were sent from the boat to the field, to fight for something that did not affect them. They felt that Blacks had a reason to fight...obviously regarding slavery practices.

One possible reason for Sullivan's perceived acrimony might have been this situation. Like those yahoos who screamed at me and my boy... we can kind of look at Sullivan a little differently. jackson actually had more socio-economic advantages and was not subject to the same national forces that Blacks in America would be subject. This is why these things get so complicated. We can never know exactly what Sullivan or Jackson thought, but, if we have a correct perception of the players in this situation, it at least sets things up so we can look at motives correctly.

When we look at Sullivan he is often perceived as a brutish figure, while Jackson is looked at as having refined ability. I think this perception comes partially because Jackson taught boxing in San Francisco and by all accounts was an excellent teacher: Here is a guy with a very good education, a top notch pugalist, why shouldn't he be an excellent teacher?

What about Sullivan? John L was very strong for sure, but for him to be succesful as a bare knuckle fighter he had to have many skills and there is evidence of these skills. The Irish stereo type is such that we always hear about his trainers having to "pick up John L from the Tavern sigh...." In fact one of Sullivan's primary trainers, William Muldoon was a leading Greco Roman wrestler and athlete in the world. So Sullivan was in effect being trained by one of the best trainers in the world. Boxing back then was intimitely tied to the grapple, and to having resistance to punishment accomplished through being in great shape no doubt!

My own take on this is that John L Sullivan considered it an act of pride that he never fought a Black Fighter (whether he did, or did not). I think prevailing Civil War Attitudes had a lot to do with this frankly.

As far as skills and who was better? One would have to know what the competition was like in Australia and England that Jackson faced. Corbett is an interesting piece of the puzzle as well. The problem I have with using Corbett as a common denominator so to speak, is that there is a good chance that Sullivan was a much better fighter with no gloves. Corbett, on the other hand, fought his fights with gloves.

Jackson fought with gloves as well and a lot of his training that influenced him was done in Australia when he won the heavyweight title there in 1886 his trainer was Jack Dowridge, an Aussie. he certainly did well when he fought outside of his country but...its hard to figure exactly how his training and competition compared to Sullivan's.

So guys like Ray said..."Don't fight lol" everyone on this thread is a poster who I enjoy posting with, I hate to see such polarity here.

Careful. With posts like this you might attract a stalker. Not that I mind getting her off my hands.


I think you summed it up well that Sullivan wasn't perfectly prepared for the transition. As a bare-knuckle fighter, as you mention, he was incredibly competent.
I know they took judo throws out of Kickboxing - was it because guys like Wallace were too proficient with them? Benny Urqudez schooled a Thai boxer using Judo. The same would have been true for any Boxer lacking knowledge of defense in the clinch.

I also don't think Sullivan viewed any man a an intellectual threat. He himself stated he did well in school, but wanted to be a pro-athlete. He then, like Dempsey after him, became a celebrity, associated with the theatre. He definitely made it in America. Before Dempsey and Ruth, there was Sullivan. jackson died an unknown.

[DreamFighter]

I get it. Numbers aren't your thing.

But Corbett had 10 pro-fights to Jackson's 60.

hey rusty u were told to quit the racism, recognise that corbett was very good, not pretend he wasnt so that you can crap on jacko.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Good post! I definitely enjoyed the read.

There's just one thing that I want to point out.

The intimation, in my estimation, was that Jackson ducked Sully. That is what Rusty intimated when he proclaimed that it was Jackson who actually declined an offer from Sully. The thread title was stated in a neutral way and left it up for people to make up their own mind.

Turns out that not only was Rusty unable to back up his claim (which I'm convinced was 100% bullshlt), but information here posted directly from Sully proves that it is 100% false, as he himself said he never had any plans of fighting Jackson at all, other than a BS non-title fight, private room offer.

.

I think she doth protest too much.



This was never more than you finding a momentary escape to your lonely life.

I don't respect a poster that will blatantly make up lies about another fighter in an attempt to blemish their legacy or to beef up the legacy of another fighter, especially when the motivation is racial, as it clearly is here. You can read Rusty's posts yourself and determine that nothing he says about black fighters should ever be believed when he clearly has such a strong bias.

Show me what lies I made up.

Show me how I intentionally tried to blemish a fighter (whom you proved wouldn;t take the fight, after all, because he was too uppity to take the champion's terms).

The guy actually sat at his computer and typed (exact quotation) "outside of the ring, Whites were always beating up Black people whenever Blacks were trying to take their jobs. Blacks had to have police escorts to leave their neighborhoods."

Igornance is a not a defense. ******ity is not a defense. Just because you don't know that this happened does not mean it's true.

Yes or no, black people had just been freed (against their will) by the blood of Whites? That had just happened. Sullivan probably knew people whose families were casualties of that ****** war. Peter Jackson's people didn't have the balls to fight for themselves, why should Peter Jackson get to fight for the World Championship?

If you have to refer to mob violence and refer to little girls being escorted into recently desegregated schools, or residents being escorted out of "Black Wall Street" after it was burned to the ground to attempt to prove some sort of inferiority in black athletes, then the simple fact of the matter is you have some serious, deep rooted racial issues.

But again, the point here was for Rusty to step up and prove his account of the story. He failed.

Desegregation happened in the South, in the 1960's... you're more than 50 years off the mark. Surprise surprise.

And these little girls... where were the men to protect them? Probably they sent them out to earn money for lotto tickets, right? They had no idea whatthe books and back pack were for.

But again, the point here was for Rusty to step up and prove his account of the story. He failed.

I don't have to prove anything. You can't remember what you say post to post, let alone thread to thread. And you care that I might have read something years ago, that I no longer believe?

You're a knock off Maxine Walters, and never will be anything better.

[DreamFighter]

I

Yes or no, black people had just been freed (against their will) by the blood of Whites? That had just happened.

hey rusty ! Why are you still being racist? It wasnt exclusively them who freed em.

wow so racist.

Sullivan probably knew people whose families were casualties of that ****** war. Peter Jackson's people didn't have the balls to fight for themselves, why should Peter Jackson get to fight for the World Championship?

becos hes man who shouldnt be discriminated against by racists like you.


wow rusty stop being so obviously racist.