Who ducked whom: John Sullivan vs. Peter Jackson

[travestyny]

What state was Sullivan in at the time? Was he really even still a professional fighter? Again, I never said Jackson couldn't beat Sullivan. Just like Sullivan never said he doubted his ability to beat Jackson - he just wouldn't risk the possibility.

LMAO. Was he a professional fighter? ABSOLUTELY. He was the heavyweight champion of the world, you moron. If he didn't want to fight, he should have retired instead of sending out a telegram saying he's looking for a fight, but just not with a black guy.

BINGO. He would risk it against Corbett but not against Jackson. I wonder why.

He would fight him for $20,000 in a private room, but not for the title in public

Reading the text with an unbiased, critical view: Sullivan very plainly does not want to give a Black man even a chance at the title, nor a chance at looking competitive. It's clearly a pride thing.
Did Babe Ruth (also a "racist") fear being struck out systematically by Black pitchers? Were there any contemporary Black Pitchers who would've bested The Bambino?

BINGO. He doesn't want to risk getting beat down by a black dude. Thanks for admitting as much!

Don't try to drag Babe Ruth into your bullshlt like you did to poor Tunney. From what I know, Babe Ruth was against segregation, so he didn't have that fear. Sorry, chump.

You're the same guy who thinks Johnson looks acceptable on film (because Teddy Atlas says so),

Not only Teddy Atlas. You better do some more research, chump!

and that Wills had a chance against Dempsey (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary).

We won't know how much of a chance he had because Dempsey, like Sully, stated that he would NEVER allow Wills to fight for the championship, but offered a bullshlt winner take all fight instead. Looks like he had someone to look up to, hmmmm?

Let me give you some advice. The eye test of a racist chump means absolutely nothing. I'm sure the Grand Wizard of the KKK thinks Bird is greater than Jordan as well. Great job!

The fact that you can infer something from this quote that no reasonable person would, isn't a surprise. It's a reiteration of your limited comprehension, and desire to get noticed at any cost - even at the expense of your dignity.

Infer what?????? That he didn't want to fight in public? THE MAN SAID HE WON'T FIGHT HIM IN PUBLIC BUT WAS LOOKING FOR A FIGHT AND INDEED DID FIGHT AGAIN.

So you tell me what that means. He was AFRAID TO FIGHT HIM IN PUBLIC. BECAUSE HIS PRIDE WOULD BE DAMAGED BY BEING BEAT DOWN BY A BLACK MAN IN PUBLIC AND LOSING THE TITLE.


Thank you, I knew we would be able to find some common ground here. Mission accomplished



"I'll fight you for $20,000.....but if that $20,000 means I have to also put the title on the line and let the world see...NO FIGHT!"

[img]https://media.*****.com/media/l3E6uhDAN3W7vylji/*****.gif[/img]

[Rusty Tromboni]

I take back anything I have ever said. Sullivan totally dodged the far superior Peter Jackson. He was shaking at his boots at the inevitable beating he'd get from the Darkness.

Also, Black Panter is the best Marvel comic character/movie ever. Fried chicken really does belong on waffles w/ aunt jemima syrup. Kanye IS a genius. And Queen Latfia is a goddess... always gives me Priapsm.



*Now, hopefully, Auntie T will put down the binoculars and move her car away from my house.
Killing any of my pets would definitely traumatize my youngest children.

[travestyny]

I take back anything I have ever said. Sullivan totally dodged the far superior Peter Jackson. He was shaking at his boots at the inevitable beating he'd get from the Darkness.

Also, Black Panter is the best Marvel comic character/movie ever. Fried chicken really does belong on waffles w/ aunt jemima syrup. Kanye IS a genius. And Queen Latfia is a goddess... always gives me Priapsm.



*Now, hopefully, Auntie T will put down the binoculars and move her car away from my house.
Killing any of my pets would definitely traumatize my youngest children.

Poster: Sully ducked Jackson
Rusty: Oh yea, then why did Jackson decline Sully's offer.
Poster: There was no offer. At least not a serious one.
Rusty: Oh.....um....that's because his offer was...um....it wasn't a real offer. He realized he was too past it. Yea.


So what happened to that offer???? Because now your story suddenly changed from, "It was Jackson who declined the offer" to "Sully realized he was too far past it and just didn't want to fight any blacks because of that reason."


See how you ****ed up?

In your own information, Sully went from big and bad making offers...... to a fragile mouse trying to hold his pride intact


It was fun putting you in your place. Hopefully you will crawl back into your hole.


But wait...Can you PLEASE make a thread about Gene Tunney being a White Supremacist!!!!! I really want to hear your proof of that one!!!

Please! I would love for this forum to get a good laugh at you once again!

[billeau2]

Just to be clear, I was not the one who brought up "scared." I don't think I ever said either was scared of the other. Rusty began ranting about scared (in his usual off-color way, pun intended).

The only way I would confidently use "scared" in this instance is to say that it seems obvious to me that Sullivan was scared of the possibility of losing the title to a black man.

It seems kind of odd, but there is obviously a difference between being scared of a man and being scared of losing to that man, with the added element of perceived racial implications. It's the same reason I think Dempsey didn't want to fight Wills (let's not get into it, plz). What I didn't think about was that it wasn't a new phenomenon with the rise of Jack Johnson. Certain boxers had a fear of letting down their race on the biggest stage when America was very and more openly racist.

And to me, that's why Jack London is relevant. He definitely embodied the sentiment of...well his own quotation: "Under that dark and somber seriousness that characterizes him, there is a race pride of which he is intensely self-conscious."

Tommy Burns in the least deserves respect for putting it all on the line regardless of all that bullshlt. Of course, unless he did it thinking his whiteness would pull him through. lol

It is funny how entrenched Jack London was in the politics of boxing. As QueenB says, London had works that were more sciFi and political in nature, and of course his books on animals... Yet there he was...the one who pestered Jeffries into a comeback against JJ, harassing JJ in the press, etc.

Racial theories were more in vogue at the time, and of course there was a fear of letting down, etc. The problem is always the same though, it is why legal testimony will not allow certain statements: We cannot ever establish what state of mind one was in independent of physical evidence and behavior.

When we follow the trail far enough it comes down to this: In a fighter's camp what would the motivation be, among the group, to act? We would have to separate these out and separate the fighter's among the group.

It is possible to do this, but I am sceptical. So many things to be aware of.

[billeau2]

Your posts are magical. Always a treasure trove of knowledge.

I wasn't trying to criticize you per se. It's just that there's evidence that Jackson's prime came at an unfortunate time, and he probably never was as good as either Sullivan or Corbett, even if he might have exploited Sullivan in his decline, and Corbett when he was green. The fact that that did not happen had nothing to do w/ racism; even if Jackson was a victim of it, generally speaking. So we need to stop talking in any way to the contrary.

As for Sullivan: you've cited another myth. Sullivan SUPPORTED the Marquis of Queensbury's rules! He WANTED gloved combat. By the time he fought Corbett he was in a reduced state, so it was very much bull vs. matador. But that's not a true reflection of who Sullivan was.

Would you characterize Ali as the fighter of the Spinks fights? Tyson as the fighter of the Lewis fight?
Imagine if that's what their respective legacies were reduced to! The very antithesis of what we think of them as. If anything their effectiveness in their primes has been exaggerated: Ali was no Pep, Tyson was no Armstrong. But poor Sullivan gets no credit for the fighter he almost certainly was.

Sure, he might have been more of an Earnie Shavers than a Vasily Lomachenko, but he definitely wasn't the caricature he's been made into. Likewise, I am not really sure how mobile and "scientific" Jackson and Corbett really were.

I think we are in agreement about Sullivan with one caveat I will speak to in a moment. What Sullivan felt about "mufflers" (gloves lol) was important...Yes he did advocate their use... Its just that the fact remains that whether he wanted to use them, or did not, most of his experience was as a bare knuckle guy. I think this is relevant because there are differences.

I believe it would be unfair to John L to not compare him more within the category he belongs within. I would not think less of him either...When you look at some of the photos of his fights you can actually see a lot: These are guys fighting for an opening and not dancing around, more rooted. The hands are held low, you can just read how things like protecting the hands, getting a proper grapple, etc were integral. If I have a hand on you, I have two points of contact automatically, the ground and that hand...

Something as trivial as Jack Johnson's ability to parry a punch by meeting it with a gloved hand, would not occur to a fighter in Sullivan's prime time, the hand would break, a finger could get disjointed (this happens a lot). And the ability to land a solid blow from a distance would probably come primarily from hitting with hooks so one would not risk breaking the hand. Probably looked a little like Mexican fighters who lead with the hook (thats a guess).

What I am getting at is that the concerns would be a little different...even if the gloves were small. With that said, I would not undermine Sullivan. As for Jackson I also agree that there was a difference in primes that affected a match up.

I don't think race was an issue with this situation. I do think Sullivan was a great fighter in an era when fighters had specific concerns...Corbett trained in the techniques of that era, but really expereinced very little bare knuckle fighting.

You know Rusty...the term "scientific" sort of does get used a lot. I hear you when you ask how "scientific" Corbett and Jackson actually were. Primae Facea Corbett found a way to be lighter on his feet and introduce more quick hand movements. he was a creature in two worlds... trained in the bare knuckle era with the use of hand protection. If you watch Sullivan horsing around, and Corbett you see that they actually use a similar feint. Corbett found a way to introduce speed into the delivery, already you had fighters using footwork.

Also I never mind criticism, its all part of learning to me. I will always admit if i think I am wrong on a point.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Poster: Sully ducked Jackson
Rusty: Oh yea, then why did Jackson decline Sully's offer.
Poster: There was no offer. At least not a serious one.
Rusty: Oh.....um....that's because his offer was...um....it wasn't a real offer. He realized he was too past it. Yea.


So what happened to that offer???? Because now your story suddenly changed from, "It was Jackson who declined the offer" to "Sully realized he was too far past it and just didn't want to fight any blacks because of that reason."

Black Glenn Close making things up, who would have thought!?!?

Show me where my story changed. I admitted long ago that I cannot find the article that I read posted, and don't care to. Show me I ever said anything otherwise. Prove to me how that changes the facts at hand.

And that's is what this whole thread boils down to: you dancing around to avoid the facts. Care to address those? You could have saved yourself so much time, and done less damage to whatever respect anyone might have had for you, if you had simply addressed the facts.

I'll lay them out again... you can feel free to actually quote them, rather than go out of your way to make up things that I never actually said:

- Peter Jackson didn't come of age in either Sullivan or Corbett's prime.

- There's strong indication he was never as good as either man.

- If he could have beaten either man (when Sullivan had become a celebrity, and Corbett was a novice), OK; but the fact that it didn't happen was not due to racism, per se.

You won't address those facts because you know it would be in the form of a concession. Even if Jackson never actually dodged Sullivan, he was never a threat to Sullivan at Sullivan's peak. Corbett, while still a novice, fought him to a draw. His best win was against Slavin (impressive, but a man who was never the world's best Heavyweight).
He got ****d and traded for cigarettes by Jeffries. But I don't hold that against him, as it appears to have occurred long past his decline, to a man who was probably at least Sullivan's equal. Do you see how applying critical thinking works?


I am sure you will misquote me, and post some article you spend all night tracking down. But why go to that trouble? Why not just address the indisputable facts?

Poster: Sully ducked Jackson

You have no proof of that. He refused to fight him on equal terms to a White man, but you cannot prove he "ducked" Jackson. I agree it is unfair and unfortunate. But that's where the theorizing stops.

I am trying to be nice because it seems you're legitimately kinda dumb, and really lonely. But even I - a former coach and High School History teacher, and father of 5 - have my limits.

We get it. You make things up. Maybe you even believe those things. You're a chronic liar. It would make sense for you to believe your own lies, or at least you come to forget where truth ends and your lies begin. But that doesn't mean others believe your lies. That's why you constantly find yourself ****ing your head against the wall. Your whole history here on this website is you failing to impress others with what you consider to be convincing lies.

But wait...Can you PLEASE make a thread about Gene Tunney being a White Supremacist!!!!! I really want to hear your proof of that one!!!

Show me where I said Gene was a "White Supremacist". Maybe if you can't find it here, you can consult Teddy Atlas or Ring Magazine. Maybe Jack Dempsey has an interview that you can dissect and manipulate?

Tunney refused to fight Black fighters but it wasn't due to his fearing them. You can read his writings for yourself to see his opinions on race. They're tremendously insightful. Again, it will surely go over your head. But I am not going to give you the cliff notes.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I think we are in agreement about Sullivan with one caveat I will speak to in a moment. What Sullivan felt about "mufflers" (gloves lol) was important...Yes he did advocate their use... Its just that the fact remains that whether he wanted to use them, or did not, most of his experience was as a bare knuckle guy. I think this is relevant because there are differences.

I believe it would be unfair to John L to not compare him more within the category he belongs within. I would not think less of him either...When you look at some of the photos of his fights you can actually see a lot: These are guys fighting for an opening and not dancing around, more rooted. The hands are held low, you can just read how things like protecting the hands, getting a proper grapple, etc were integral. If I have a hand on you, I have two points of contact automatically, the ground and that hand...

Something as trivial as Jack Johnson's ability to parry a punch by meeting it with a gloved hand, would not occur to a fighter in Sullivan's prime time, the hand would break, a finger could get disjointed (this happens a lot). And the ability to land a solid blow from a distance would probably come primarily from hitting with hooks so one would not risk breaking the hand. Probably looked a little like Mexican fighters who lead with the hook (thats a guess).

What I am getting at is that the concerns would be a little different...even if the gloves were small. With that said, I would not undermine Sullivan. As for Jackson I also agree that there was a difference in primes that affected a match up.

I don't think race was an issue with this situation. I do think Sullivan was a great fighter in an era when fighters had specific concerns...Corbett trained in the techniques of that era, but really expereinced very little bare knuckle fighting.

You know Rusty...the term "scientific" sort of does get used a lot. I hear you when you ask how "scientific" Corbett and Jackson actually were. Primae Facea Corbett found a way to be lighter on his feet and introduce more quick hand movements. he was a creature in two worlds... trained in the bare knuckle era with the use of hand protection. If you watch Sullivan horsing around, and Corbett you see that they actually use a similar feint. Corbett found a way to introduce speed into the delivery, already you had fighters using footwork.

Also I never mind criticism, its all part of learning to me. I will always admit if i think I am wrong on a point.

That's really insightful. And exactly what this forum is all about. I do genuinely feel bad for Auntie T, but I know he's just trying to be difficult to get attention. If he wanted to honesty discuss some of these matters, the conversations could actually be really productive.

I appreciate what you are saying about the techniques used by Sullivan. It makes sense w/ Boxing still in its infancy, that it was more natural fighting. The throws, the desire to protect the hands, the idea that men were to fight to prove who was superior, as opposed to dancing away.

I always say modern MMA looks more like early Boxing, and this would definitely fit that description. McGregor has had tremendous success against fighters who are much more polished in traditional striking arts and far more experienced in MMA specifically because he doesn't carry their useless baggage. He looks more like a bare-knuckle Boxer than a Queensbury Boxer or Thai Boxer.

[billeau2]

I take back anything I have ever said. Sullivan totally dodged the far superior Peter Jackson. He was shaking at his boots at the inevitable beating he'd get from the Darkness.

Also, Black Panter is the best Marvel comic character/movie ever. Fried chicken really does belong on waffles w/ aunt jemima syrup. Kanye IS a genius. And Queen Latfia is a goddess... always gives me Priapsm.



*Now, hopefully, Auntie T will put down the binoculars and move her car away from my house.
Killing any of my pets would definitely traumatize my youngest children.

You Guys!!

I wanted to mention one more thing that is important: The reason why one would not want to lead with a committed jab as a bare knuckle fighter is because if i wanted to break your hand all i have to do is catch your jab on my elbow point. Also, if you are firing that jab? I will let you hit me in the forehead under certain conditions, another way to smash the hand.

IF however I come from the side with a hooking punch, the worse I will get is the side of your arm and it will not threaten my hand, and...if I catch you in the head, it is to the side, where the temple, and the jawline is. the kidneys are also a target with a hooking circular punch.

The straight shots would be good for once one has the opponent going backwards. Even their uppercuts were range finders... again because at this angle the hand is more protected.

So when people see depictions of Sullivan slugging away with circular punches....Well he was no dope!! Those guys only had to experience trying to fight with a broken hand once to know...and most of their corner pharmecopia was devoted to trying to harden the hands.

[travestyny]

Show me where my story changed.

I just did. It went from "Sullivan offered him the fight. Why didn't Jackson take it" to "Sullivan realized he was too far past it."


So which is it?

- Peter Jackson didn't come of age in either Sullivan or Corbett's prime.

- There's strong indication he was never as good as either man.

- If he could have beaten either man (when Sullivan had become a celebrity, and Corbett was a novice), OK; but the fact that it didn't happen was not due to racism, per se.

You won't address those facts because you know it would be in the form of a concession.

You wouldn't know a fact if it smacked you between the eyes

The facts are simple. Sully was heavyweight champion. Jackson wanted a fight. Sully said...."Nah, but we can do it in private for $20,000.

You, being the squirming little cvnt that you are, tried to change it into Sully wasn't a professional fighter at the time. LMAO

"A strong indication he was never as good as either man" is called an opinion, you dumb fvvck.


The fact that HE WOULDN'T FIGHT HIM BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK makes it pretty clear that it was about racism, you dumb fvvck.


Did you get that?

Even if Jackson never actually dodged Sullivan, he was never a threat to Sullivan at Sullivan's peak.

Another opinion.

Corbett, while still a novice, fought him to a draw. His best win was against Slavin (impressive, but a man who was never the world's best Heavyweight).

And Corbett must have been a novice when he beat Sully, huh? Did Sully want a fight, or not? He obviously did because he fought Corbett. But he wouldn't fight Jackson. lol.

Champions fight or retire. Simple as that. Stop squirming.

He got ****d and traded for cigarettes by Jeffries. But I don't hold that against him, as it appears to have occurred long past his decline, to a man who was probably at least Sullivan's equal. Do you see how applying critical thinking works?

What does that matter? It was YOU who claimed that Jackson was ducking Sully's offer. Now you are all on some, stop picking on the old man bullshlt. Are you starting to understand how your story changed, Hmmm?????

I am sure you will misquote me, and post some article you spend all night tracking down. But why go to that trouble? Why not just address the indisputable facts?

Opinions are not facts, moron. I don't care who you thought would have won, or who you thought would have won in their prime. The thread was very clear.

YOU CLAIMED THAT JACKSON DUCKED SULLY'S OFFER. NOW YOU CLAIM THAT JACKSON WAS PICKING ON POOR LITTLE SULLY.

That's a 180 degree turn around!

You have no proof of that. He refused to fight him on equal terms to a White man, but you cannot prove he "ducked" Jackson. I agree it is unfair and unfortunate. But that's where the theorizing stops.

Oh yes I can.

I would never agree to meet him in the ring in public

Says so right there. All because he was black. If he were white, he would have fought, right? Right???????? lol

I am trying to be nice because it seems you're legitimately kinda dumb, and really lonely. But even I - a former coach and High School History teacher, and father of 5 - have my limits.

Oh shut your dumb ass up. Everyone knows by now that you are a complete moron, and a racist one at that. I doubt you have a brain at all and that's why you're getting dragged around this thread by your neck. Keep it up and I'll do the same about Tunney.

We get it. You make things up. Maybe you even believe those things. You're a chronic liar. It would make sense for you to believe your own lies, or at least you come to forget where truth ends and your lies begin. But that doesn't mean others believe your lies. That's why you constantly find yourself ****ing your head against the wall. Your whole history here on this website is you failing to impress others with what you consider to be convincing lies.

Says the guy who is lying about an imaginary offer from Sullivan, who himself said he would NEVER fight a black man after becoming champion. LIAR!!!!

Show me where I said Gene was a "White Supremacist".

No problem, you moron!

By the time you get to Tunney and Loughran they were refusing to fight Blacks because Blacks were considered inferior.

If you are saying Tunney refused to fight blacks because they are considered inferior, what the fvvck do you think that means, moron?

Are you saying that he believed....whites were superior?????? Do you have a brain??????? Seriously?

Tunney refused to fight Black fighters but it wasn't due to his fearing them. You can read his writings for yourself to see his opinions on race. They're tremendously insightful. Again, it will surely go over your head. But I am not going to give you the cliff notes.

Well that's what I'm talking about. Post up his opinions on race and we can see if he was a racist or not. We all know that we can't believe what you say, because you'll just state that you read it on AOL once upon a time

[DreamFighter]

Rusty you are full of shyt - corbett fought sully 15 months after jackson.

He didnt jump from novice to prime in 8 months and just one fight.


I'm not reading anymore of your lies, you are a racist, sort it out and then come back.