Were Patterson and Ingo the worst heavyweight champs ever ?

[Hugedealmacca]

Leon Spinks is one of them
Cheers
Macca

[QueensburyRules]

Of all the heavyweight champs they impress me the very least. The glass chinned brawler and the stick and move boxer with a 72 inch reach, neither of them seem like they would have been champions in another era.

- -Seems yer stuck in the pre-Neanderthal era.

Ingo a one punch artist and Floyd a bob and weaver. Even post Cus he was never a young Clay stick and mover.

Both KO Leon early doors 6x a week and thrice on Sundays.

[Blue54]

Gotta be Charles Martin the dude is just so forgetable lol Leon Spinks is close second

[billeau2]

Superbly stated.


I'll add that his style also provided for him to get hit.


I know I am a broken record on the level of Auntie T, but Patterson was the the Ford Falcon and Tyson was the Ford Mustang.

Cus learned a lot at Floyd's expense.

Give him weight training, improved diet, and steroids, and you have something much closer to Tyson. Maybe not with the nastiness, but certainly with more brains and heart.

The fact that Patterson was constantly getting back to his feet should tell you something.

Maybe he was the great Cruiserweight Champion there never was. P4P he's a great fighter. Highly skilled, and technically proficient.

Well said. Patterson was a stone cold killer. He was also a gentleman. People look at the Liston fight as the entire situation for Floyd, If I remember correctly he was getting on in age at that time and losing to Liston is not like losing to Charles Martin! Frazier lost to Foreman and is still looked at respectfully.

Its a good point about Cus Rusty, because the Peek a Boo was not necessarily the best way for Patterson. If Patterson had looked a bit more at guys who could fight off the back leg, he might have emulated them. How would anyone but another slugger beat a guy like Liston sitting in front of him covering up?

[Ben Bolt]

Its a good point about Cus Rusty, because the Peek a Boo was not necessarily the best way for Patterson.

Wasn't it that Cus had Floyd adopting the 'peek-a-boo'-style because Floyd was (especially) vulnerable to blows to the temples ...

Ingo and Floyd were deserving champions. Ingo was a smart boxer and his right was a hammer. And having seen Floyd working the sandbag on film clips, his hand speed was astonishing.

However, I believe the era actually belonged to Liston. He was probably #1 from '58 on.

[billeau2]

Wasn't it that Cus had Floyd adopting the 'peek-a-boo'-style because Floyd was (especially) vulnerable to blows to the temples ...

Ingo and Floyd were deserving champions. Ingo was a smart boxer and his right was a hammer. And having seen Floyd working the sandbag on film clips, his hand speed was astonishing.

However, I believe the era actually belonged to Liston. He was probably #1 from '58 on.

I don't know what Cus was responding to with Patterson. Yeah makes sense, no slouches for sure Liston would have been a handful for many.

[ShoulderRoll]

Patterson was a skillful fighter. I don't think he's anywhere close to being the worst heavyweight champion ever.

That title would have to go to Primo Carnera or Nikolai Valuev or someone like that.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I’m convinced had Patterson stayed at 175 he’d have been a top 5 all-time there and probably been a champion for a long time.

Yeah, this is definitely possible. We can all at least agree that it was regrettably, although necessary, he had to move to Heavyweight so quickly.

Floyd was young when he won the Light Heavyweight division and clearly grew past 175 pounds quickly. I don't know how long, especially with his energy-taxing style, he could have made the LHw limit, but more time there would have been magical. We missed out on something special for sure.

got robbed against Quarry.

Wrong.
Actually, these fights, especially the second are really good fights to judge a Boxing fan's ability to score on. It's a lot like the Graham-Gavilan fights and Jofre-Harada.

In the modern era, with multiple camera angles, zoom-in, slow-motion, and HD, it's easier to appreciate when a punch lands and when it falls short. That has surely had a tremendous, if unsung, impact on scoring, and thus the nature of Boxing. Suddenly, looking the part isn't enough.

Patterson had fast busy hands, but he missed a lot. That's not to say his didn't land effectively, but many of those rounds weren't as close as they appeared. Pushing the fight and throwing punches is great, but the rules specifically state "effective" aggression.

Also, those fights were scored by rounds. There was no 10-must. The knockdowns (attempt to finish the fight) did not score him/cost Floyd extra points.
While regrettable, it's also true some of the blame falls on Quarry. He knew the rules, and it's no one else's fault that he didn't pace himself.
Quarry was a bit green, and probably looking to make a name for himself at the expense of Patterson's legacy and questionable chin. (ali had just stopped Patterson). Ironically, his desire to end it early, wound up costing him rounds later; he spent too much energy going for the KO.

This is one fight where modern Boxing would get it right. There's no rule against fading in a fight. Can you find it?

It's a bit unsavory. But that's the nature of the sport.

The consolation is that that legacy wise, we can all agree the judges got it right. Posterity knows Quarry the better Heavyweight. Patterson was at his peak when he met Quarry, while Quarry was still just short of his. Each man at his best, Quarry surely makes good on his promise to end it in the 5th Round.
Watching the fight, it's also pretty obvious that these weren't true Heavyweights. With the arrival of Liston, it should have been obvious that Boxing needed the Cruiserweight division. These two could have gone down as two of the sport's greatest-ever champions.

- -Seems yer stuck in the pre-Neanderthal era.

Ingo a one punch artist and Floyd a bob and weaver. Even post Cus he was never a young Clay stick and mover.

Both KO Leon early doors 6x a week and thrice on Sundays.

Ingo is very underrated. I have always wondered how his might have handled himself in any earlier, more celebrated, generation. Him vs. Marciano would have been amazing. What worked for Patterson was different than how The Rock did things. I favor Rocky, but I bet he has to get up off the deck to get things done.

Its a good point about Cus Rusty, because the Peek a Boo was not necessarily the best way for Patterson. If Patterson had looked a bit more at guys who could fight off the back leg, he might have emulated them. How would anyone but another slugger beat a guy like Liston sitting in front of him covering up?

Great point. Such a gifted athelte, he might have actually done really, really well fighting more defensively. He kept falling for Quarry's traps and looked helpless against Ali. So much untapped potential.

He might have even been a Sugar Ray Leonard-type, had he come up in the 80's under Dundee.

Conversely, how does a young Tyson (even with the roids and weight-room) handle a guy like Liston? Liston wasn't the monster many want to make him out to be, but he was very dangerous for anyone who stood in front of him. He definitely stood his mud better than Buster DOuglas.
Even his "best" opponent, the version of Holmes that Tyson fought was a bum compared to Liston.

[QueensburyRules]

Patterson was a skillful fighter. I don't think he's anywhere close to being the worst heavyweight champion ever.

That title would have to go to Primo Carnera or Nikolai Valuev or someone like that.

- -Both of whom demonstrated boxing basics that Ali constantly lacked.

Like Wilt noted who was also a one off IQ as well, "Nobody loves a Giant."

[ShoulderRoll]

- -Both of whom demonstrated boxing basics that Ali constantly lacked.

Like Wilt noted who was also a one off IQ as well, "Nobody loves a Giant."

Exactly which boxing basics did Carnera and Valuev have that Ali lacked?