Who Could Roy Jones Not Have Beaten?

[The Old LefHook]

Final analysis: it doesn't matter whose fault it is; it happened, that is the only cogent fact. You get credit for what you did, nothing else. I do not really care how long he lasted, either. He beat a long line of shoe clerks. His quality of opposition averages just above mediocre in total. Most of them were slightly-above-mediocre fighters who were larger than he was, however. Their natural size advantage must be factored in.

Jones wanted to circumvent the powers-that-be in boxing. He is the great talent with the most illusions about his abilities outside the ring. He would win that poll easily. Robinson had quite a few too: he thought he could dance and he thought he was a businessman, or at least was cagey enough to hire honest people to watch over his financial empire. His first European tour was Robbie's solution to the powers-that-be, and it worked.

Jones had no solution up his sleeve other than to deny the PTB control over him by sacrificing his own legacy. They could not get near him. But neither could he get near a great opponent in a timely fashion.

A cǒckfighter who farms pitbulls put himself up against the world's best legal minds and promoters in their familiar arena. You only do that if you have seriously overestimated your own position. When a $5 million dollar check from HBO arrives like clockwork after every scrub mandatory you fight, it is hard to even see that you have miscalculated anything. Roy probably believed the bigger fights eventually had to come, so he saw himself as escaping with easy money until then.

But those big fights never came before he was knocked wedge-cold by a so-so fighter named Tarver.

[The Old LefHook]

The question was Who could he Not have beaten?

As a middleweight or super middleweight he would have a shot with anyone.

As a light heavy he cannot beat boxing wildcats who can also punch, like Tunney and Charles, for starters. Both of them had enough speed. I am not sure Moore had enough speed. But Moore is pretty cagey, and may be able to lure Jones inside.

Foster and Spinks are not fast, but they have extraordinary length that compensates. A swarmer like Indian Yaqui Lopez had enough punch, speed and resistance to KO glass Roy in a hard fight. But Roy will beat all cute boxers with no punch, like Rosenbloom or Loughran. Greb had a good chance because he would stay very busy. Billy Conn has everything. The punches he hit Louis with would KO glass Roy. I doubt if Roy can survive Matt Franklin for 15 of 'em. Guys like Freddie Mills and Jose Torres were awfully rugged. Same for Victor Galindez. They might be too rugged for Roy, and they would probably beat any light heavies he fought, Griffin and Tarver being the best of the bunch.

As far as heavyweights go, he will not beat most good ones. Forget about great ones. Joe Frazier would put glass Roy on a stretcher.

[BattlingNelson]

Bat,

how many more times are we going to do this dance?

I haven't done much in this thread and yes a lot of it has been done before. We must find a consensus really.

You cannot claim that he avoided the guys who he didn't fight, just on the grounds that he didn't fight them.

I have told you many, many times that Liles wouldn't fight Roy, despite him being offered his biggest pay day at the time. That has not only been confirmed by HBO, but by Liles' own manager at the time - Jack O'Halloran.

I've also told you many times, that Roy's handlers - the Levin's, had a deep distrust of Don King, and along with Roy, they wouldn't grant King future options for a fight with Benn in 1995.

When Roy couldn't obtain those fights, he could have remained at SMW for years, where he could have reached double figures for defending his IBF belt. But he didn't do that. When he couldn't get the fights at SMW, he moved up to LHW to fight Griffin and Hill. And if Dariusz had dropped his lightly regarded WBO belt and not got stripped, Roy would have been under huge pressure to go and fight him in Germany.

The thing is here, that you don't see the pattern. All you see is reasons (excuses) for Jones not fighting the best. There's always an excuse: Don King, Seoul, daddy, money etc.

To me it adds up to Jones being a trinket collector and not a champion looking to leave a big legacy in the sport. Possibly because he didn't want to make the concessions needed.

To you it adds up to Jones being a victim og various circumstances that prevented him from getting the resume his talent deserved.

Is that an agreeable conclusion?

[Rusty Tromboni]

You consider Benton and Carter club fighters? those guys were serious fighters who were fighting in a serious time.

Jones was a good fighter but also a cherry picker. There are a lot of red flags over his wins. Now he is a very good fighter, it's obvious - but to be a great you need a fight that tests your greatness, he always stayed shy from that.

Hopkins was green and a rematch never happened. This was still probably his best win. Toney was struggling with weight issues by the time he got in with Jones. With those 2 out of the way, the rest were just resume fillers, having being koed by Tarver - but ill be fair coming back down in weight is always hard.

Carter was fighting serious tough contenders who came to take his head off and weren't scared ****less or unprepared for the big stage. Benton was just supremely skilled.

If a fighter doesn't pursue greatness he isn't great. Mayweather falls under the same category. Not saying I wouldn't do the same either if it made me more money, but it's either greatness or money. Fighters today like Mikey or Brooke sometimes go after greatness but inevitably fail because they aren't "great". they are just good.

While Ali was handing out rematches left and right and screaming to fight the top guys, Jones was making excuses.

1) carter and benton were fine fighters on the local circuit, but neither were champions. there have been much better middleweights - even in their own era they weren't the best. Giardello, I recall, beat both. While he was chronically inconsistent and unmotivated, he was a much better fighter. And still, he probably isn't even top 20 all-time.

1a) If you have footage of Benton and Carter suggesting they're real contenders against Jones, I'd love to see it. (Again, there are many other fighters you might want to start with first). But Jones would be carrying a considerable size advantage to the fight. In Carter's era, Jones would have been a Light Heavyweight.

2) I disagree that Hopkins was Jones' best win. I think it probably was Ruiz, or the first Tarver fight. But Toney is up there. Yes, he was fighting a horribly mismanaged weight-cut more than he was fighting Jones, but he was also a favorite. I remember seeing that fight live on PPV. Jones was less experienced, and moving up in weight. In retrospect, it was a terrible stylistic match-up for Toney. But I think it was a great win for Jones.

Hopkins purposefully avoided Jones - and any division north of 160, until Jones had faded. He's even on record saying as much. He doesn't directly say he had been dodging Jones. But he does say he could have abandoned the Mw division "six years earlier", or something like that.

Both were better pure-boxers than Jones. But he was a stylistic nightmare for both. They simply lacked the athleticism. Look at the type of fighters they each excelled against - neither did well against men like Jones.

3) I agree with the spirit of your posts in this thread. The only thing Jones did better than abuse PEDs was cherry-pick competition. Seriously, I would love to see him against ATGs... I wouldn't be surprised if he won some big fights, but generally speaking, I am sure the myth of Jones pops like a balloon.

[them_apples]

The question was Who could he Not have beaten?

As a middleweight or super middleweight he would have a shot with anyone.

As a light heavy he cannot beat boxing wildcats who can also punch, like Tunney and Charles, for starters. Both of them had enough speed. I am not sure Moore had enough speed. But Moore is pretty cagey, and may be able to lure Jones inside.

Foster and Spinks are not fast, but they have extraordinary length that compensates. A swarmer like Indian Yaqui Lopez had enough punch, speed and resistance to KO glass Roy in a hard fight. But Roy will beat all cute boxers with no punch, like Rosenbloom or Loughran. Greb had a good chance because he would stay very busy. Billy Conn has everything. The punches he hit Louis with would KO glass Roy. I doubt if Roy can survive Matt Franklin for 15 of 'em. Guys like Freddie Mills and Jose Torres were awfully rugged. Same for Victor Galindez. They might be too rugged for Roy, and they would probably beat any light heavies he fought, Griffin and Tarver being the best of the bunch.

As far as heavyweights go, he will not beat most good ones. Forget about great ones. Joe Frazier would put glass Roy on a stretcher.

foster and spinks were plenty fast at 175.

[OctoberRed]

foster and spinks were plenty fast at 175.

Yes, they were.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Foster and Spinks also had excellent timing, something when allayed with good speed makes a fighter near invincible.

[Mugwump]

It's certainly unfortunate (from a fight fan's perspective) that Jones ended up meeting Pazienza rather than the likes of Benn or Eubank.

Right from the outset I figured Paz (who I liked) was made for Jones and we really weren't going to learn anything we didn't already know.

I mean, Jones would undoubtedly enter the ring as favourite against either Benn or Eubank. But neither were guys he could afford to take lightly.

[them_apples]

1) carter and benton were fine fighters on the local circuit, but neither were champions. there have been much better middleweights - even in their own era they weren't the best. Giardello, I recall, beat both. While he was chronically inconsistent and unmotivated, he was a much better fighter. And still, he probably isn't even top 20 all-time.

1a) If you have footage of Benton and Carter suggesting they're real contenders against Jones, I'd love to see it. (Again, there are many other fighters you might want to start with first). But Jones would be carrying a considerable size advantage to the fight. In Carter's era, Jones would have been a Light Heavyweight.

2) I disagree that Hopkins was Jones' best win. I think it probably was Ruiz, or the first Tarver fight. But Toney is up there. Yes, he was fighting a horribly mismanaged weight-cut more than he was fighting Jones, but he was also a favorite. I remember seeing that fight live on PPV. Jones was less experienced, and moving up in weight. In retrospect, it was a terrible stylistic match-up for Toney. But I think it was a great win for Jones.

Hopkins purposefully avoided Jones - and any division north of 160, until Jones had faded. He's even on record saying as much. He doesn't directly say he had been dodging Jones. But he does say he could have abandoned the Mw division "six years earlier", or something like that.

Both were better pure-boxers than Jones. But he was a stylistic nightmare for both. They simply lacked the athleticism. Look at the type of fighters they each excelled against - neither did well against men like Jones.

3) I agree with the spirit of your posts in this thread. The only thing Jones did better than abuse PEDs was cherry-pick competition. Seriously, I would love to see him against ATGs... I wouldn't be surprised if he won some big fights, but generally speaking, I am sure the myth of Jones pops like a balloon.

1a) against Joey Giardello, Goerge Benton and Holy Mims. these fights are on youtube. Sure you don't know who Holy mims was, but he was a great fighter in that time period. There was 1 belt, and everyone fought each other. Once again, Jones doesn't have a considerable size advantage. he started at 154. Just because he lifted weights and dehydrated a few more pounds doesn't mean he has a "considerable size advantage". Hopkins was known for cutting what? under 5 lbs? he seemed bigger than Jones.

2) its between toney or Hopkins. With toney it was the weight cut and also the style. but these are his best wins.

I get it they weren't title holders but this is because there was only 1 real title. theres 5 now and there was at least 4 during Jones day. Ruiz wasn't even a real champion.

[OctoberRed]

It's certainly unfortunate (from a fight fan's perspective) that Jones ended up meeting Pazienza rather than the likes of Benn or Eubank.

Right from the outset I figured Paz (who I liked) was made for Jones and we really weren't going to learn anything we didn't already know.

I mean, Jones would undoubtedly enter the ring as favourite against either Benn or Eubank. But neither were guys he could afford to take lightly.

I remember Jones-Paz being on PPV as well, those vultures.