Who Could Roy Jones Not Have Beaten?

[robertzimmerman]

- -Field ducked the Roy fight at heavy.

Fact!

They had brief talks in 1998, but Evander felt as though he was in a no-win position at the time.

In 2003, there were negotiations, but Roy wanted a lot of money and Evander had issues with King over money which was owed to him for a previous fight. In the end, he took the Toney fight instead for less money.

[robertzimmerman]

- -That's 16 yrs ago, and memory may fuzz a bit, but it was probably the Ruiz fight, big news on the AOL boards.

Harmon had already been scheduled obviously.

Let me repeat the obvious, Darius wanted Roy for his 49th record tying fight. Roy didn't, but glad to see the Roy drug accusers on the side of Roy even if they are wrong in both cases.

Dariusz did not want Roy for his 49th fight in 2003.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

Let me repeat:

His advisor wouldn't even sit down with HBO 2 years earlier.

By 2003, all talks had completely fizzled out.

Roy fought Ruiz in March of 2003.

He signed to fight Tarver in September of 2003.

[robertzimmerman]

Did you complete 6th grade? I dunno, I feel like I got out of my way to write simple sentences here. If you really couldn't comprehend my point, maybe you should be doing more productive things with your time?

Tell me who Roy's best wins were? Before the loss to Tarver, I'd say it had been Toney, Ruiz, Hopkins - in about that order. No way, is that ATG work. Impressive, but not really top tier by the standard of any decade previous.

Boxing was slower than other sports to adopt measures to discourage doping, but they were sufficient that Roy changed his habits. And the results were glaring! Deflated, and finally fighting men his size and a little closer in talent, his aurora vanished.

I will concede that he was one of the best talents of his era. And much of his talent was the product of nature and hard-work. No one sticks a needle in their ass and become RJJ overnight. But acting like PED abuse was crucial to his success, and his career didn't change once he was under the spotlight is delusional and absurd. (It's no different than what we've seen in MMA, the use of PEDs can have drastic effect on a fighter's performance. We have almost 3 decades of material for evaluation: Vitor Belfort, Mark Coleman, Alistair Overreem, Johnny Hendricks, the whole Chute Boxe camp, CroCop, Barao, Randy couture, Brock Lesnar, Jon Jones... As fighters move from one organization to another, and organizations move from one policy to another - and back again - performances change.)

Again, Roy was a great fighter, but he flourished in an era where talent - even competition - was nearly non-existent and the attitude toward PED abuse was permissive.

This is an awful post.

It's all over the place.

Roy is clearly an ATG.

He dominated for 10 years, across 4 weight classes, barely losing rounds in the process.

Roy's demise was due to age and the weight loss coming back from HW.

His style was built around split second timing.

He needed to either retire early or change his style to conpensate for his age. But unfortunately, he did neither, ultimately paying a heavy price.

No PEDS could give a fighter the gifts that Roy had. They couldn't back then and they couldn't today.

What do you mean competition was non existent?

What habits did he change?

Finally fighting men his size?

He only started to lose at 35, whilst he was campaigning in his 3rd weight class after having had 50 fights.

[robertzimmerman]

BattlingNelson,

Him leaving SMW left his legacy with more questionmarks than the riddlers suit. So many names are missing. Nunn, Liles, Littles, Benn etc. I could go on and on.

How many more times?

He left the division because he couldn't obtain fights with Benn and Liles.

HBO and Liles' manager have confirmed that.

Why are you arguing against Liles' own manager who was extremely angry and frustrated with him?

Why do you keep bringing Littles up?

Littles was stopped by Toney and Liles.

He went up and was dubiously gifted a couple of trinkets to which he just said THANK YOU and then he wouldn't fight the divisions champion. This is just a fact. I don't really care about your book of excuses.

He wasn't gifted anything. He had to fight Del Valle and Johnson for the titles, after they had fought for them. And none of that would have happened had Dariusz have dropped his lightly regarded WBO belt after beating Hill. Again, he simply had to have known going into the Hill fight that he could not have held the WBO belt alongside the WBA and the IBF ones.

He had to have known that for 3 reasons:

1. It was his job to know such things.

2. Kohl was an astute businessman.

3. The WBO were formed by disgruntled ex-members of the WBA, and the WBA also stripped other fighters who wanted to hold the WBO belt alongside their other titles.

Seeing as though the WBO were lightly regarded at the time and he'd just won 2 of the 3 main belts, there should have been no reason for him not to have immediately have relinquished the WBO belt.

Yes, Roy WANTED to fight the lineal champion. But he would not go to Germany as he didn't think he'd get a fair shake. And who could blame him?

You know that he was robbed in Seoul.

You know that Dariusz pathetically cheated to get Rochogianni disqualified.

You know that Robin Reid had to fight against the referee as well as Sven Ottke back in 2003, which was absolutely disgraceful.

It was not Roy's fault that Dariusz lost his titles.

He doesn't deserve any criticism for not wanting to have taken all 3 of the main belts across to Germany back then.

Anybody who criticises him for that is either an idiot or a hater.

Roy would have fought him in the U.S. but Kohl obviously didn't want that to happen.

Again. His resume at SMW is so much weaker than it could have been. Yes we have covered it (to) many times. You say Jones couldn't drag them in the ring. I say he didn't try enough and his resume suffers accordingly. Now that doesn't mean that Jones isn't one of the best ever fighters in fantasy match-ups, it just means that he doesn't have the resume to validate it.

Of course his resume sufferers for it. But we're talking here about trying to compromise with Don King, and trying to get fighters to have fought him who didn't want to.

Jones career smells of trinketcollecting and moneygrabbing. Resume-building not so much. He could have done so much more.

It's easy for you to say that.

Again, how can you make guys fight you?

Look at the Hopkins rematch which was missed in 2002:

Hopkins' biggest purse back then had been $2.5m against Tito. HBO then offered him $6m for a 168 C-W. Yet it was turned down flat, as he demanded $10m or no fight. There was no compromise or anything. Roy's resume suffers for not having had that fight back then. But how can you deal with a guy like that?

Boxing fans have been robbed of thousands of fights over the years.

You can criticise Roy and his resume all you like. But it's a fact that guys like: Liles, Calzaghe, Dariusz and Hopkins did not want to fight him in the late 90's/early 00's. And there's nothing that he could have done to have changed that.

[robertzimmerman]

I reckon it's possible that you guys haven't followed the debate?


Let me help you. Some posters ridiculed queensbury for saying Kessler was a p4p fighter when Calzaghe fought him. I was simply lecturing those ridiculers that he indeed was a p4p fighter.


Now return to subject.


Class dismissed.

I have followed the debate.

I understand exactly what you are saying. But how can you criticise Roy's resume, before then declaring that wins over the likes of Mundine and Siaca were outstanding?

[robertzimmerman]

- -As far as the the money Joe made from boxing, after his divorce he woke up and realized he scarcely had a penny to his name and Warren owing him a few million that was being dragged out in court.

So, since Popkins deliberately ducked Joe and he wasn't even in Roy's peripheral vision, he made his last two fights in America against his highly touted rivals to set himself up nicely and retired.

...Amen...

I'm pretty sure that he could have earnt more by facing Pavlik. But he obviously wanted Roy's name on his resume to massage his ego.

[Rusty Tromboni]

This is an awful post.

It's all over the place.

Roy is clearly an ATG.

He dominated for 10 years, across 4 weight classes, barely losing rounds in the process.

Roy's demise was due to age and the weight loss coming back from HW.

His style was built around split second timing.

He needed to either retire early or change his style to conpensate for his age. But unfortunately, he did neither, ultimately paying a heavy price.

No PEDS could give a fighter the gifts that Roy had. They couldn't back then and they couldn't today.

What do you mean competition was non existent?

What habits did he change?

Finally fighting men his size?

He only started to lose at 35, whilst he was campaigning in his 3rd weight class after having had 50 fights.

They formerly believed idiocy was a hindrance to success. But more recent studies have shown a lack of intelligence to be highly advantageous to success as those individuals who are unaware of their inaccuracies or the limitations of their assumptions tend to be much more emphatic in upholding their beliefs and proceed undeterred by contrary information. Obviously there are drawbacks. But society has advanced to a point that there are so many safety nets, these such individuals seldom feel the full brunt of their poor decisions and can rather comfortably reset and try again. Conversely, more intelligent individuals, through experience, tend to become more contemplative and practice safer, more conservative strategies. They're open to new ideas; and are willing the change course in light on new evidence.

Robertzimmerman is the text book example of the successful idiot. He's so ****** its painful. But being numb to his own idiocy, he marches forward pronouncing his rubbish in defiance of fact. A smarter person might have just changed his mind, or been left exhausted trying to defy the truth. But Zimmerman simply cannot grasp reality. So his commitment is hasn't wavered.

He'll never change. he'll never "see the light". He'll actually get worse. But he'll be more content with himself. A most pathetic "victory".

[QueensburyRules]

I'm pretty sure that he could have earnt more by facing Pavlik. But he obviously wanted Roy's name on his resume to massage his ego.

- -SuperJoe invited Kelly to the Kessler fight, but I dunno if Kelly took him up on it. We know post Taylor I is when his personal problems first surfaced that led to ongoing health prob when he put his fist thru a window and picked up a dangerous staph infection during that treatment.

Roy was always the money fighter in the subheavy divisions, not Pavlik, but Darius was making as much in Germany.

And yeah, you can hold your breath and jump up and down til you turn blue, but Darius came to America to promote a Roy fight and nobody was interested.

Darius lost that 49th to a guy Roy took an easy decision over, Gonzales. Roy idolaters exploded in glee, but little did they know payback was gonna be their bltch.

[Bjl12]

Roy loses to USADA at every weight class.

[Bjl12]

No PEDS could give a fighter the gifts that Roy had. They couldn't back then and they couldn't today.

...Lance Armstrong, a decent-good cyclist, won like 12 straight championships because of PEDs. Once off the juice he returned to being decent-good.

PED's can take you to the next level if you're already good. And what was it about RJJ that was special? His athleticism, speed, power, and reflexes...all things that are directly benefited from...P E D's.

USADA beats RJJ. Every time.

/thread