Is Dempsey Overrated? Is his ATG status questionable

[travestyny]

A lot of the veteran trainers will watch the wraps. Its a great way to also screw with the opposition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tar_Incident

Travesty your in the New York Area yes? Billy Martin is one of my all time favorite sports heroes...he would sign autographs for us as kids. This is an example of the same kind of "game' being run on the royals. Just a smart way to disrupt and deny the Royals! Just like inspecting the wraps.

hahaha. Now that is a crafty move! Thanks for this!!!!

[travestyny]

The use of adhesive tape was fully within the rules.

We are talking about what his trainer said he did, and why he did it. Do you deny the trainer said it, or have any valid reason to deny what he said?

Last time you were saying there was no such thing as white bicycle tape in 1919 because your father owned a bike shop. When you were proven wrong, you left the thread and never returned.

[classicbuzzbox]

Evidence against Dempsey's ATG status:

Dempsey gained the title by beating Jess Willard, who was inactive for roughly three years prior to their bout. It was also reported by Jack Kearns that Dempsey's hand wraps were "loaded" with plaster of paris.

Dempsey's best wins are against Firpo, Gibbons and Carpentier.

Firpo was on a good win streak, but not ATG.

Gibbons wasnt rated.

Carpentier was excellent, and the European HW champ, but was a small HW, more suited for LHW.

After loosing the title to the LHW Tunney, Dempsey won against Sharkey with what might be fair to consider a cheep shot.

In summation: Dempsey's resume doesnt really match up with other ATG resume's.

Evidence for Dempsey's ATG status:

The Tunney bouts were past his prime.

The long count.

Respectably long title reign.

Kearns' claims about loaded wraps might amount to no more than sour g****s.

Obvious power, skills, ferocity, etc. displayed in footage of his fights.

What he meant for boxing, in terms of him popularizing the sport.

In summation:There are other considerations that work in Dempsey's favor for securing his ATG status.

So, Where do you all rank him as an ATG, and why (or why not)?

Hey Travesty, bring this alt down to the dome.

[travestyny]

Hey Travesty, bring this alt down to the dome.

Why would I need an alt? I say what I like and never worry about any consequences because my thoughts are well researched. You should know that by now.

Haven't you gotten tired of being a less than adequate troll? Give it up already. And stop quoting me/referring to me. I've never seen you once discuss boxing here. You're useless.


But for the record, I feel the OP did a great job. Personally, I believe that Dempsey is overrated, for the reasons given. However, I feel that his ATG status is NOT questionable, for the reasons given. OP did a great job from all angles. For me, somewhat overrated, but nevertheless an ATG for sure.

[GhostofDempsey]

What about the issue that his gloves were loaded?

False. It's been disproven time and again. Here is a photo of Dempsey in the corner before the beginning of the Willard fight. Wraps on display.

Willard had a man in Dempsey's corner for the hand wrapping and walked Dempsey down to the ring to make sure gloves were not tampered with. Same with Willard. A guy by the name of Walter Monaghan stood over Demosey while his hands were wrapped, he was from Willard's corner. Neither man had any illegal tape, metal bolts or plaster in their gloves.




The manner in which Dempsey's former manager, Kearns, describes plastering Dempsey's gloves was later duplicated and found to be completely without merit. You have to remember, Kearns had stiffed Dempsey out of a lot of money and was ultimately fired by Dempsey, so of course he has a motive to discredit him.

From "Tex Rickard: Boxing's Greatest Promoter" by Colleen Ay**** and Mark Scott

"Walter Monaghan and Ike O'Neil from the Willard group had been in Dempsey's dressing room to oversee the wrapping of his hands by Jimmy DeForest. A large number of journalists also were in the room to witness the event: Grantland Rice, Ring Lardner, Jimmy Johnston, Ned Brown, Ruben Goldberg, Hype Igoe, Bugs Baer, Bob Edgren, boxing commissioner William Muldoon, Tm Mix, Nat Fleischer, and Damon Runyon. Kearns had been in Willard's room to oversee the same activity."

So with all these witnesses surrounding Dempsey during the taping of the gloves, this would have to have been a massive conspiracy to load his gloves/wraps and each and every one of those present would have to have kept it a secret that they took to the grave. Highly unlikely.

[johnbook]

False. It's been disproven time and again. Here is a photo of Dempsey in the corner before the beginning of the Willard fight. Wraps on display.

Willard had a man in Dempsey's corner for the hand wrapping and walked Dempsey down to the ring to make sure gloves were not tampered with. Same with Willard. A guy by the name of Walter Monaghan stood over Demosey while his hands were wrapped, he was from Willard's corner. Neither man had any illegal tape, metal bolts or plaster in their gloves.




The manner in which Dempsey's former manager, Kearns, describes plastering Dempsey's gloves was later duplicated and found to be completely without merit. You have to remember, Kearns had stiffed Dempsey out of a lot of money and was ultimately fired by Dempsey, so of course he has a motive to discredit him.

From "Tex Rickard: Boxing's Greatest Promoter" by Colleen Ay**** and Mark Scott

"Walter Monaghan and Ike O'Neil from the Willard group had been in Dempsey's dressing room to oversee the wrapping of his hands by Jimmy DeForest. A large number of journalists also were in the room to witness the event: Grantland Rice, Ring Lardner, Jimmy Johnston, Ned Brown, Ruben Goldberg, Hype Igoe, Bugs Baer, Bob Edgren, boxing commissioner William Muldoon, Tm Mix, Nat Fleischer, and Damon Runyon. Kearns had been in Willard's room to oversee the same activity."

So with all these witnesses surrounding Dempsey during the taping of the gloves, this would have to have been a massive conspiracy to load his gloves/wraps and each and every one of those present would have to have kept it a secret that they took to the grave. Highly unlikely.

Thanks.
But I'll go with the evidence and what Travestyny said.

[Marchegiano]

That is a nice photo of the champ!

Thanks for sharing bubba.

[GhostofDempsey]

Thanks.
But I'll go with the evidence and what Travestyny said.

Of course you would, no doubt an alt.

Outside of this clown, you can read for yourself credited accounts of what went down.

DeForest himself said he put two layers of tape over the gauze on Dempsey's hands. He also said that Dempsey's hands were soaked in brine for the duration of their training camp, which made his hands tough as leather and hardened.

From one of DeForest's articles:

ABOUT THOSE TAPED HANDS.

Soon afterwards I took up the job of tapping his hands. Right here is where I have a statement to make to the public once and for all. The punching power that Dempsey had developed over all his previous battles proved so amazing to many persons when he mowed big Willard down. The crack and the kick of his blows were so forceful that after the fight many of those who had lost heavily on Willard turned detractors at Dempsey and myself. They spread stories which got wide circulation to the effect that I had doped the tape on Dempsey hands.

Some of them had it that, I had doped plaster of paris between the gauze strips which hardened after Dempsey got his hands into the gloves. Others speculated tea lead; This is the paper, this lead that comes from tea boxes and has figured in the use of bandages by unscrupulous managers, trainers and fighters.

I have never played the game that way, and for me to have done so in Dempsey's case would have been sheer idiocy. For what Dempsey most needed to beat Willard was speed. And to have weighed his hands would have defeated his own purpose. It would have made Dempsey's hands too heavy for fast use and would have slowed him up to the ponderous Willard's own gait.

SOAKED HANDS IN BRINE.

It is true, though, that Dempsey went into the ring that day his hands were hard as steel-jacketed bullets, and the reason for that was that every morning and night from the day we began training I had made Jack soak his hands in brine---a strong, sharp brine. It puckered and shrunk the skin until it was cured to the toughness of leather. All the fat and softness was plucked out of them. They were the toughest pair of hands in the United States that day. And all I put on them when we went into the ring was seven wraps of soft gauze and two wraps of adhesive tape. That's everything that was in Jack's gloves besides his hands the day he made a quitter of big Willard. I guess I need not go into the details of the fight itself, which is still vividly remembered, same as the intimate things regarding it which have never been published.

[HOUDINI563]

You can find anything you want looking back over so many years and so many articles. Deforest contradicted himself in various articles. As someone who has played withvarious types of hand wrapping there is no significant difference in the ability to punch harder or cut your opponent based upon the type adhesive tape employed. The glove type and the amount of padding within that glove DO have an effect. In those days of brick like horse hair filled five ounce gloves to imply hand wrapping type enhanced power is laughable. Those gloves were lethal weapons on the fists of a fighter as powerful a puncher as Dempsey.

[travestyny]

So much evidence about what happened with the wraps that it's obvious.

Dempsey's trainer

“When I handled Kid McCoy I used to bandage his hands with a certain kind of adhesive tape. As soon as McCoy drew on the gloves, the tape hardened and, as a result, he was able to inflict unusual punishment. I wound Dempsey's hands with the same kind of bandages, which Willard inspected. The story that Dempsey wore aluminum pads over his knuckles is a lie. His bandages became hardened, no doubt, and that was why he cut Willard's face to ribbons.”

And again, from Nat Fleischer's 1958 book '50 Years At Ringside' (page 117-119):

Deforest became riled when the loaded gloves stories began to appear. I recall a press conference he had with several reporters, including myself, at which he angrily remarked:

"I regard the stories I put plaster of Paris on Jack's bandages as plain libel. I'm tired of hearing people talk about such nonsense. It's pure trash. These rumors affect my reputations for honesty and fair dealing. I did not apply any foreign substance to them. I used a hard adhesive tape. This certainly was not irregular. It was not against the rules. It was the same kind of tape I always used when I bandaged Kid McCoy's hands."

Seems to follow EXACTLY what this article says about Kid McCoy:

San Francisco Call, Volume 107, Number 117, 27 March 1910 -- TRICKS OF THE TRADE OF PRIZE FIGHTERS



The clip tells of exactly the same process that Dempsey's trainer mentioned. Is it just a coincidence, or did someone look into the future and decide that this would be a great way to shlt on Dempsey in the future?

Charles Samuels’s Book’s info. on the proceedings before the Willard/Dempsey fight, likely as told from Ned Brown who was in the dressing room, and whom Samuels said he got most of his information from:

When the Marines finally departed there was another delay while a fresh canvas was laid in the ring. Willard had heard that the canvas from his opponent's training-camp ring was being used and demanded at the last moment that another be substituted.

While this was being done, his handlers were watching Dempsey wind yards of heavy bicycle tape around and around his fists, without protesting.
https://archive.org/stream/magnifice...41mbp_djvu.txt

Carpentier asked Dempsey to remove the tape from his hands before their fight.

For the Tunney fights, author Arne K. Lang said bicycle tape was prohibited, forcing Dempsey to fight with far less bandaging than was his custom.

Hmmm.

Williard protested about the way Dempsey wrapped his hands and was VERY concerned about it. If anyone wants the proof of quotations, ask and I'll provide them. For now, compare that picture above of Dempsey's hands with Willards for the fight.