The Lineal (and true) World Heavyweight Title

[Marchegiano]

What would you say is the best book on the subject?

Me





Seriously though I have several thousands into boxing books covering history from 686 BC to recent history.

There isn't one book that covers the period well enough to cosign yet. I believe Zachary Gaskell's book will be that book but he's not yet finished.

My advice is independent research. I will help you if you like, but, the truth is there is no point in you spending a hundred dollars on information that is found in free books, newspapers, or journals easily sourced online. I just need to know more specifically what you want to look at and I can point you to it.

To get you going I will give you, and anyone else reading this I guess, my most basic resource. This is a list of all the lineal champions. More than just lineals are listed, but, all the lineals are on the list. Start out easy and just copy a name and give it a search to learn more about them and don't be shy about asking me questions about anyone you can't get information on.

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD

*Banned by Theodosius I in 393 AD

English Era

The Unnamed Dark Age Butcher - 1681

James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The Jew' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The Virginia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

Daniel Knox - 1842

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Charlie 'The Black Thunderbolt' Smith - 1876

Joe Goss - 1876

'Scalping' Morris Grant - 1878

Paddy Ryan - 1880

Charles 'Professor' Hadley - 1881

John 'The Boston Strong Boy' L. Sullivan - 1882

George 'Old Chocolate' Godfrey - 1883

American Era

'The Great' John L. Sullivan - 1885

Peter 'The Great' Jackson - 1888

'Gentleman Jim' James J. Corbett - 1892

Peter Maher - 1895

Bob 'The King of the Battle Royal' Armstrong - 1896

'Ruby' Robert James Fitzsimmons - 1897

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1898

George Byers - 1898

Klon***e - 1899

James 'The Boilermaker' J. Jeffries - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1901

Ed 'The Colorado Giant' Martin - 1902

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1903

Marvin 'The Louisville Plumber' Hart - 1905

Noah Brusso a.k.a. Tommy 'The Little Giant of Hanover' Burns - 1906

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1908

Sam McVea - 1909

Jeremiah "Joe" Jeannette - 1909

Samuel 'Boston Bonecrusher' Langford - 1910

Al Palzer - 1911

Sam McVea - 1911

Sam 'Boston Tar Baby' Langford - 1912

Luther McCarty - 1913

Arthur Pelkey - 1913

Edward 'Gunboat' Smith - 1914

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1914

Georges 'The Orchid Man' Carpentier - 1914

Sam 'Boston Terror' Langford - 1914

Jess 'Pottawatomie Giant' Willard - 1915

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1916

Sam 'Greatest Fighter Nobody Knows' Langford - 1916

'Big' Bill Tate - 1917

Sam 'Boston' Langford - 1917

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1918

Jack 'The Manassa Mauler' Dempsey - 1919

James Joseph Tunney a.k.a Gene 'The Fighting Marine' Tunney - 1926

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1926

(Lawrence Samuel) 'Loopin'' Larry Gains - 1928

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1930

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1931

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1931

Joseph Paul Zukauskas a.k.a Jack 'Sharkboy' Sharkey - 1932

Primo Carnera - 1933

'Bearcat' Obie Dia Walker - 1933

Maximilian Adelbert Baer - 1934

James J. (Walter) 'Pride of the Irish' Braddock - 1935

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1935

'Loopin' Larry Gains - 1935

Joseph 'The Brown Bomber' Louis Barrow - 1937

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1949

Lee 'The Battling Bartender' Savold (Hulver) - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1951

Arnold Raymond Cream a.k.a Jersey Joe Walcott - 1951

Rocco Francis Marchegiano a.k.a Rocky 'The Brockton Blockbuster' Marciano - 1952

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1956

Ingemar 'The Hammer of Tho' Johansson - 1959

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1960

Charles L. 'Sonny' 'The Big Bear' Liston - 1962

Cassius 'The Louisville Lip' Clay - 1964

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1964

Ernie Terrell - 1965

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1967

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1968

Jimmy (Albert) Ellis - 1968

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1970

'Big' George (Edward) Foreman - 1973

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1974

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

Ken 'The Jaw Breaker'(Howard) Norton - 1978

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1978

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1978

'Big' John Tate - 1979

Mike 'Hercules'(Dwayne) Weaver - 1980

Michael (Marshall) 'Dynamite' Dokes (Doakes) - 1982

Gerhardus 'Gerrie' 'The Bionic Hand' Christian Coetzee - 1983

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1983

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1984

'Pink' Pinklon Thomas - 1984

Greg Page - 1984

Tony 'TNT' Tubbs - 1985

Michael 'Jinx' Spinks - 1985

Trevor Berbick - 1985

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1986

James 'Bonecrusher' Smith - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1987

Tony 'TNT' Tucker - 1987

Mike Tyson - 1987

Francesco Damiani - 1989

James 'Buster' Douglas - 1990

Evander 'The Real Dea' Holyfield - 1990

Ray 'Merciless' Mercer - 1991

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1992

Riddick 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Riddick 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1992

Tommy 'The Duke' Morrison - 1993

Michael Bentt - 1993

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1993

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1994

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1994

Oliver 'The Atomic Bull' McCall - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1995

Riddick 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1995

Bruce 'The Atlantic City Express' Seldon - 1995

Frank Bruno - 1995

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1996

Henry Adetokunboh Akinwande - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson- 1996

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1996

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1997

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1997

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1997

Vitali 'Dr. Ironfist' Klitschko - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1999

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2000

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 2000

Wladimir 'Dr. Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2000

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2001

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion'Lewis - 2002

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2002

Roy 'Captain Hook' Jones, Jr. - 2003

Corrie 'The Sniper' Sanders - 2003

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2004

Lamon 'Relentless' Brewster - 2004

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2004

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2005

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2005

Siarhei 'The White Wolf' Liakhovich - 2006

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2006

Oleg 'The Big O' Maskaev - 2006

Shannon 'The Cannon' Briggs - 2006

Ruslan 'The White Tyson' Chagaev - 2007

Sultan(-Ahmed Magomedsalihovich) Ibragimov - 2007

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2008

Samuel Okon Peter - 2008

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2008

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2008

David 'The Hayemaker' Haye - 2009

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2011

Alexander 'Sasha' Povetkin - 2011

Bermane 'B.Ware' Stiverne - 2014

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2014

Deontay 'The Bronze Bomber' Wilder - 2015

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2015

'Prince' Charles Martin - 2016

Lucas 'Big Daddy' Browne - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2016

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2016

Joseph (Dennis) Parker - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2017

(Mahmoud Omeirat) Manuel 'Diamond Boy' Charr - 2017

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2018

[The Old LefHook]

It does not exist anymore. To pretend it does is to indulge in fantasy. Everyone has their opinion about who is the true champ. It takes a fight to prove it. I ran out of patience. I truly do not care who fights anymore. It is a whole new generation of filth called promoters to listen to, and I have no interest in their tongue slop.

[HOUDINI563]

Most on that list, at least since Sullivan, were never the lineal champion.

[Marchegiano]

Most on that list, at least since Sullivan, were never the lineal champion.

I am a wordy bastard so you probably missed it but the list isn't meant to be limited to lineal it's meant to include lineal.

I was going to post just lineals but then I thought, ya know, fella might have more interests beyond lineal this list could prove useful for.

It's just a research resource I keep handy because looking up names and dates can be such a pain sometimes I thought y'all might also like to use it for the same reason.

[Anthony342]

Yeah, I was going to say that too. And Shannon Briggs was lineal too after he got that gift decision against George Foreman, I just looked it up. Foreman was stripped of all major belts and then retired after the loss, so maybe that's why it's not listed? Lennox then beat Briggs to become lineal and then retired, breaking a long lineage that started with Floyd Patterson. I remember seeing a youtube video this long lineage, ending with Lewis' retirement after his TKO win over Vitali Klitschko.

[billeau2]

I am a wordy bastard so you probably missed it but the list isn't meant to be limited to lineal it's meant to include lineal.

I was going to post just lineals but then I thought, ya know, fella might have more interests beyond lineal this list could prove useful for.

It's just a research resource I keep handy because looking up names and dates can be such a pain sometimes I thought y'all might also like to use it for the same reason.

That Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC... had no chin! Sorry could not resist!

[Marchegiano]

That Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC... had no chin! Sorry could not resist!

Oh don't worry about that. Most boxing fans do not take ancient boxing seriously.


There are plenty of answers ancient boxing provides though so I keep it around.

Philon, for example, is your first dynasty in boxing. His father, Glaukos, was champion before him.

A statue was built in tribute to Philon with the inscription composed by Simonides: “My fatherland is Korkyra and my name is Philon. I am the son of Glaukos and I won two Olympia victories for boxing.”

[billeau2]

Oh don't worry about that. Most boxing fans do not take ancient boxing seriously.


There are plenty of answers ancient boxing provides though so I keep it around.

Philon, for example, is your first dynasty in boxing. His father, Glaukos, was champion before him.

A statue was built in tribute to Philon with the inscription composed by Simonides: “My fatherland is Korkyra and my name is Philon. I am the son of Glaukos and I won two Olympia victories for boxing.”

There is a name for that attitude about not taking seriously people in the past. Thinking there were no historians back then, only myth makers. Its the same type of chauvanism that allows a Western Philosopher to tell one that philosophy is a Western construct, when India has the most varied, logically dense, and all encompassing philosophical tradition when compared to the West.

Heres an interesting aside on this point: Plato actually maintains that he interviewed Egyptian Priests who said they got their tradition (passed it down to the Greeks) from people off the island of Atlantis. Was Plato telling the truth?

At the famous trial of Socrates, Plato chronicles in "The Apology" Socrates, as being a martyre, and he outlines a Socratic dialogue that is still taught in all the military academies in this country, and part of all intro to philosophy courses, in ethics. BUT what people may not be aware of is that there was another Greek historian chronicling the trial as well, hs name was Xenophon (sp)... Problem is he chronicles a very different picture!

Xenophon describes Socrates as arguing poorly and being thrashed by the Sophists hired. LOL. Food for thought.

[Marchegiano]

There is a name for that attitude about not taking seriously people in the past. Thinking there were no historians back then, only myth makers. Its the same type of chauvanism that allows a Western Philosopher to tell one that philosophy is a Western construct, when India has the most varied, logically dense, and all encompassing philosophical tradition when compared to the West.

Heres an interesting aside on this point: Plato actually maintains that he interviewed Egyptian Priests who said they got their tradition (passed it down to the Greeks) from people off the island of Atlantis. Was Plato telling the truth?

At the famous trial of Socrates, Plato chronicles in "The Apology" Socrates, as being a martyre, and he outlines a Socratic dialogue that is still taught in all the military academies in this country, and part of all intro to philosophy courses, in ethics. BUT what people may not be aware of is that there was another Greek historian chronicling the trial as well, hs name was Xenophon (sp)... Problem is he chronicles a very different picture!

Xenophon describes Socrates as arguing poorly and being thrashed by the Sophists hired. LOL. Food for thought.

I understand.

I don't feel like anyone needs to be explained the difference between myth and history or that anything from antiquity is best taken with a grain of salt.

I mean If I told y'all about the story behind Apollo inventing boxing you wouldn't then believe I think Apollo was a real man would you?

Then why is it rather than understanding the traditions that form this sport people elect of their own will to be ignorant to them simply because the story around them may have been made up?

When asking yourself how old is hellenistic boxing do dates that cover boxing mythology not tell you the hellens were talking about boxing at least since when they made up boxing myths?

So whether or not Glaukos is real doesn't tell us much if anything about hellenistic boxing actually. But the fact that they have a story about a man who had very little training but did become the champion of olympia all the same during a time when most had to train at least since their teens to attain the same goals does let us know they were aware of these sort of situations and they are not modern in anyway.

Glaukos has some parallels with Marciano or Wilder. Not enough time to train to catch up to pedigrees and is not accredited to have ever but rather be saved by a hell of a punch.

Glaukos does not need to be a real man to tell us the hellens had this dynamic in their sport, the story alone does that.

As far as boxing getting stories attributed to it by later authors who may have added elements of their own era to it goes that is a perfectly reasonable skepticism except they are either ancients themselves or they existed during a time when there was no boxing for them to watch and be influenced by.....it isn't Godfrey who tells about Philon you get me? So the idea that say Moses just made up Philon and Glaukos based on a boxing match he watched is just a bit more of a stretch than accepting the idea that greeks experienced under trained fighters who overcame skill differences with power and determination....that's a bad example because Moses isn't the historian who brings Glaukos Pausanias is, but he was a Roman speaking on greek culture so he could bel attributing Roman elements to an earlier Greece but like I said about myth and not feeling the need to declare myth as myth I don't think anyone needs to be told it's Rome who spread greek culture and made all these claims about ancient greece.

So when i say things like Philon is our first dynasty I expect all this to be considered without me saying anything. Philon may not have even existed, the stories attributed may be out of time, and all of it may be more fantasy than reality but it is still the origin story of the sport and there is still quite a lot to be learned.

I'll leave on this. Moses of Armenia was laughed at for centuries for his account of king Varazdat also of Armenia. Varazdat was so far in the myth category the Olympic Committee refused to acknowledge him for years and because his stories are so mythological historians agreed it is most likely he had never competed in boxing at all let alone win olympia.

Then while digging amongst the ruins of an ancient athlete's clubhouse they found a golden plaque; a champion list, names, dates, and what they won. Of course since this plaque corroborated Moses outlandish championship claim it had to be dated because at first it was thought to be a hoax. It was dated and that is why you see King Varzadat as the last champion on my list of ancients.

I don't bring up the King to say skepticism is a bad thing. I'm glad they put the battery to him because is shows ancient boxing history may not be a flimsy as you believe. We do dig this stuff up and have a pretty good reason to believe he might have actually been champion. Sometimes and in some cases I feel like the ancients have a stronger argument for their history than more modern eras. Cribb-Molyneaux and Burke-Byrne come to mind. Yankee Sullivan is a mythological figure all his own. I don't say this because I want to detract from those eras, Yankee is one of my favorites actually, but it seems like if I talk about 1722-1888 that's all very interesting new old stuff while anything prior it like i'm a looney tune for caring about it at all.

Edit sorry I did bring that home like I had in mind. It would be nice if we had Cribb's lion skin belt right? Well we do have the King's plaque.

[billeau2]

I understand.

I don't feel like anyone needs to be explained the difference between myth and history or that anything from antiquity is best taken with a grain of salt.

I mean If I told y'all about the story behind Apollo inventing boxing you wouldn't then believe I think Apollo was a real man would you?

Then why is it rather than understanding the traditions that form this sport people elect of their own will to be ignorant to them simply because the story around them may have been made up?

When asking yourself how old is hellenistic boxing do dates that cover boxing mythology not tell you the hellens were talking about boxing at least since when they made up boxing myths?

So whether or not Glaukos is real doesn't tell us much if anything about hellenistic boxing actually. But the fact that they have a story about a man who had very little training but did become the champion of olympia all the same during a time when most had to train at least since their teens to attain the same goals does let us know they were aware of these sort of situations and they are not modern in anyway.

Glaukos has some parallels with Marciano or Wilder. Not enough time to train to catch up to pedigrees and is not accredited to have ever but rather be saved by a hell of a punch.

Glaukos does not need to be a real man to tell us the hellens had this dynamic in their sport, the story alone does that.

As far as boxing getting stories attributed to it by later authors who may have added elements of their own era to it goes that is a perfectly reasonable skepticism except they are either ancients themselves or they existed during a time when there was no boxing for them to watch and be influenced by.....it isn't Godfrey who tells about Philon you get me? So the idea that say Moses just made up Philon and Glaukos based on a boxing match he watched is just a bit more of a stretch than accepting the idea that greeks experienced under trained fighters who overcame skill differences with power and determination....that's a bad example because Moses isn't the historian who brings Glaukos Pausanias is, but he was a Roman speaking on greek culture so he could bel attributing Roman elements to an earlier Greece but like I said about myth and not feeling the need to declare myth as myth I don't think anyone needs to be told it's Rome who spread greek culture and made all these claims about ancient greece.

So when i say things like Philon is our first dynasty I expect all this to be considered without me saying anything. Philon may not have even existed, the stories attributed may be out of time, and all of it may be more fantasy than reality but it is still the origin story of the sport and there is still quite a lot to be learned.

I'll leave on this. Moses of Armenia was laughed at for centuries for his account of king Varazdat also of Armenia. Varazdat was so far in the myth category the Olympic Committee refused to acknowledge him for years and because his stories are so mythological historians agreed it is most likely he had never competed in boxing at all let alone win olympia.

Then while digging amongst the ruins of an ancient athlete's clubhouse they found a golden plaque; a champion list, names, dates, and what they won. Of course since this plaque corroborated Moses outlandish championship claim it had to be dated because at first it was thought to be a hoax. It was dated and that is why you see King Varzadat as the last champion on my list of ancients.

I don't bring up the King to say skepticism is a bad thing. I'm glad they put the battery to him because is shows ancient boxing history may not be a flimsy as you believe. We do dig this stuff up and have a pretty good reason to believe he might have actually been champion. Sometimes and in some cases I feel like the ancients have a stronger argument for their history than more modern eras. Cribb-Molyneaux and Burke-Byrne come to mind. Yankee Sullivan is a mythological figure all his own. I don't say this because I want to detract from those eras, Yankee is one of my favorites actually, but it seems like if I talk about 1722-1888 that's all very interesting new old stuff while anything prior it like i'm a looney tune for caring about it at all.

Edit sorry I did bring that home like I had in mind. It would be nice if we had Cribb's lion skin belt right? Well we do have the King's plaque.

This debate is well known in the ivory tower M. You touch on good points here... its an interesting aside that the very process of flesh and blood versus various appearances...mythological, or otherwise, is nuanced in a different fashion in the ancient Greek language. Where as we have facsimile and immanent representation, in Greek Phenomenological parlance there are many aspects of experiencing an event: and in this conflux there is not such a dichotomy between myth/ truth because this dichotomy does not exist.

Myth is structured as a means to bringing out that which is relevant. We can see how this thinking created scientific plausability in something called the "Anixamander Fragment" which basically describes the tendency of a fragment from space to move until met with an equal or greater force... which was later to become the laws of physics under Newton.

With that said the myth of the man is part of the man. his appearance as flesh and blood is simply a relationship of a part of the man to the whole of experiencing the man, as a boxer, as a marker, as a sports hero.

I don't mean to get deep but My passion has always been philosophy. LOL