No boxer could have beat Mike Tyson on the 22nd of November, 1986

[BKM-]

I suggest you watch Holyfield against Czyz (couldn't visibly hurt a blown up middleweight), Mercer (life and death), Bowe (KO'd by) and Moorer (flat and unimpressive) etc... which were the fights leading up to the Tyson fight. Accept that Holyfield was simply an all around better fighter than Tyson and you'll have a much easier time dealing with your hero getting his ass handed to him twice by Holyfield who won 12 of the 14 rounds he fought against Tyson.

Again, those fights have nothing to do with Holyfields fights against Tyson. Holyfield beating Tyson is known as the biggest comeback in boxing. Do you understand that? It was a comeback, so he wasn't past his prime. He looked bad in those fights, true(Dont have **** to do with it), but he came back looking great, this making it one of the best comeback in history. That right there destroys your little boxrec research. End of this discussion.

[SABBATH]

Again, those fights have nothing to do with Holyfields fights against Tyson. Holyfield beating Tyson is known as the biggest comeback in boxing. Do you understand that? It was a comeback, so he wasn't past his prime. He looked bad in those fights, true(Dont have **** to do with it), but he came back looking great, this making it one of the best comeback in history. That right there destroys your little boxrec research. End of this discussion.

You obviously never saw Holyfield against Tillis, Thomas, Rodrigues, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman or Bowe I. That Holyfield fought at a quicker pace, had better punching accuracy, threw more combinations, moved more and and still scored KO's.

The Holyfield that fought Tyson was slower, flat-footed didn't put many combinations together (unless Tyson was already hurt) and fought mainly in spurts. He beat Tyson because he was a better all around fighter who had developed his superior ring generalship by relishing the opportunity to fight every top heavyweight of his era, while not having to rely on intimidation combined with a front runner style.

Holyfield looked mediocre in his fights before he fought Tyson and afterwards with the exception of the Moorer rematch. Holyfield went back to mediocrity against Vaughan Bean, while losing a combined 5 straight fights to Lennox Lewis and John Ruiz. Other than Moorer II. Tyson is the ONLY guy that Holyfield KO'd in the last 13 years of his career!

Accept it. I know it hurts. Tyson got schooled by a 34 year old past his prime Holyfield.

As for Tyson dodging a younger Holyfield that's also fact. The fight was signed and set for November 1991 (I have the fight poster) before Tyson pulled out claiming he injured his rib doing sit-ups. It was later confirmed by Tyson's management that the rib injury didn't exist and that Tyson had backed out due to worry about his impending **** trial.

[BKM-]

You obviously never saw Holyfield against Tillis, Thomas, Rodrigues,Dokes, Douglas, Foreman or Bowe I. That Holyfield fought at a quicker pace, had better punching accuracy, threw more combinations, moved more and and still scored KO's.

The Holyfield that fought Tyson was slower, flat-footed didn't put many combinations together (unless Tyson was already hurt) and fought mainly in spurts. He beat Tyson because he was a better all around fighter who had developed his superior ring generalship by relishing the opportunity to fight every top heavyweight of his era, while not having to rely on intimidation combined with a front runner style.

Holyfield looked mediocre in his fights before he fought Tyson and afterwards with the exception of the Moorer rematch went back to mediocrity against Vaughan Bean, while losing a combined 5 straight fights to Lennox Lewis and John Ruiz. Other than Moorer II, Tyson is the ONLY guy that Holyfield KO'd in the last 13 years of his career.

Accept it. I know it hurts. Tyson got schooled by a 34 year old past his prime Holyfield.

As for Tyson dodging a younger Holyfield that's also fact. The fight was signed and set for November 1991 (I have the fight poster) before Tyson pulled out claiming he injured his rib doing sit-ups. It was later confirmed by Tyson's management that the rib injury didn't exist and that Tyson had backed out due to worry about his impending **** trial.

I saw Holyfield fight Douglass, Bowe, Foreman and a few other times. He did not look flatfooted against Tyson, he was bouncing on his toes as usual, just not AS MUCH. Might i remember you that he gained weight and muscle..Punching accuracy? Again, watch this fight and look at the combos that land, you're seriously a joke if you dont think he still had accuracy and punching power. That last combo that stopped Tyson is all that needs to be said. As far as kos goes, he ko'd lesser fighters. I didn't see him ko Bowe or Foreman? Or ofcource another great fighter like Mercer? What makes you think he would've done that to a prime Lewis? Haha! Since when has Holyfield become a knockout artist? You crack me up. And for your information, he also ko'd Moorer after Tyson who he lost to earlier. Im gonna end this conversation. I hope you understood everything. Holyfield was nowhere near to washed up, he changed his style, wich means he wasn't even past his prime imo. Just face it. Whatever boxrec research you're gonna post, im not responding to it annymore, its offtopic and pointless because i already broke it down.

[BKM-]

the Buster Douglas who schooled & pummelled Mike Tyson, on Feb 10, 1990......would beat the Mike Tyson who KO'd Trevor Berbick.
He'd have a little more trouble, but no version of Tyson could handle a 6'4", 231lb, un-itimidated man who was boxing like Buster was.

Maybe he would have beaten him. But if they fought 3 times, Tyson would have won atleast twice. Douglass had a porcelain chin. It was really that bad. There's no way he could have taken more than 1 powerfull punch to the chin.

[leff]

porcelain chin?

and mike couldnt knock him out, now what does that say about mike?

[BKM-]

Mike only hit him flush once?

[The Noose]

IMO, the idea that Tyson NEEDED to intimidate fighters isnt true.

The intimidation was there because of Tyson style, fighters were scared of him becuase he was that good.
Maybe he started to rely on this intimidation later in his career, wen he started staring fighters down.

But the young focused and vicious Tyson was actually incredibly scared himself before fights. (We have all seen the footage of him crying with Teddy Atlas before an amatuer fight).

The fear of losing made him fight brilliantly, as he became champion and lost his disipline he started to rely more on his self proclaimed baddest man on the planet bull****.

He believed his own hype and forgot the boxing skills that gave him his reputation.

[micky_knox]

IMO, the idea that Tyson NEEDED to intimidate fighters isnt true.

The intimidation was there because of Tyson style, fighters were scared of him becuase he was that good.
Maybe he started to rely on this intimidation later in his career, wen he started staring fighters down.

But the young focused and vicious Tyson was actually incredibly scared himself before fights. (We have all seen the footage of him crying with Teddy Atlas before an amatuer fight).

The fear of losing made him fight brilliantly, as he became champion and lost his disipline he started to rely more on his self proclaimed baddest man on the planet bull****.

He believed his own hype and forgot the boxing skills that gave him his reputation.

yes.

people seem to forget that these guys were scared of tyson for a reason.......

[K-DOGG]

A brief synopsis on Holyfield vs Tyson: both were past their primes. Tyson, as I've said before, would have been on the skids at age 30 even if he hadn't gone to prison; he was that type of fighter with a short shelf life. Dempsey, Marciano, and Frazier...all similar to Mike in style: aggressive fighters who attacked out of a crouch, were all on the downside by their late 20's.

Dempsey lost to Tunney and retired at age 32...he'd also lost the title the year before and was losing to Sharkey before his left to the groin, left to the chin combo knocked out the Gob.

Marciano retired at age 31 after defeating Moore, complaining of severe back pain. True, he was in a feud with Weil; but, ultimately Rocky knew he was at the end of his best and didn't want to shame the family name with a loss.

Frazier was 29 years old when Foreman bounced him out of his belt in Jamaica. True, the first Ali fight took a lot out of Joe; but ultimately, it was his style that did him in. Short aggressors never last long in the heavyweight division and rarely anywhere else. Joe never won another significant bout after losing to George, Quarry II not withstanding.

Mike, in addition to being a short-span fighter, was inactive and incarcerated for nearly four years and, honestly, didn't have the love for the game when he got out as he did when he went in...it was about money in career two. And, of course there was rust; but his mentality was the key in addition to him being past his prime.

However, when Mike went away in 1991, he carried that mystque with him, which grew in the public's mindset while he was incarcerated and was embellished by fantasies of how prison life would make him EVEN MORE OF A BADASS by the time he was released. Myths and legends grow more embellished over time, don't you know.

What about Evander? Holy's heart carried him through on many occasions. He was consisered shot by the time he fought Tyson due to his losses to Moorer and kayo by Bowe and unimpressive win over Czyz...which is why, I believe, Don King signed the match with him. He was a name; but appeared to have no substance left. Boy, were we wrong.

In a nutshell: we grossly overestimated Tyson and horribly underestimated Holyfield.

[Brassangel]

Originally Posted by K-DOGG
In a nutshell: we grossly overestimated Tyson and horribly underestimated Holyfield.

Yeah, the idea that he (Tyson) would become tougher after a 4-year layoff was rediculous. That would have been like assuming that Ali would have been better after his layoff as well. Holyfield knew that this was a great opportunity against a slightly ring-rusty, and heart-lacking opponent, and he took advantage of it. Tyson underestimated Holyfield as well. What people seem to forget is how he lost 4 pounds for their second fight, and actually had Holyfield in trouble before the bite heard round the world ended the match in a DQ, and basically ended Tyson's second career run.

Also, to the random people who assume that a tall, heavy fighter was always going to pose a problem for Tyson, read my post on page 7 or 8 of this thread. He proved that he had the ability to learn, adapt, and deal with large fighters. Ruddock is a good example, as being better than nearly all of the other "tall" guys Tyson faced (short of Lewis), and he showed heart, adaptability, and body work in those fights.

Even so, he was not unbeatable in the 80's. In a perfect sceneario, had he not gone to prison, he likely would have lost 1-2 fights in the mid 1990's and called it quits. He certainly would have looked better than he does today, however.