If Tyson had come back like Ali would he have been the undisputed GOAT?

[Blond Beast]

Ugh “Prime Tyson” just so u don’t get him confused with “Tyson”. So overrated as a fighter but that’s his best compliment. He was likeable, watchable, people want to give him more credit than he deserved. Horrible to be underrated. To say he was unbeatable in 87-88 is a joke. Fought nobody. Watch his fights, his famous head movement and great jab were against bums. Never lasted. I asked my old man after the Spinks fight if anyone could beat Tyson, he said “Well Son theres this guy named Evander Holyfield”. And he took all bets at even odds when they finally fought. We love Mike. But his prime was as long as anyone else’s, it’s being great that barely lasted.

[JAB5239]

Ugh “Prime Tyson” just so u don’t get him confused with “Tyson”. So overrated as a fighter but that’s his best compliment. He was likeable, watchable, people want to give him more credit than he deserved. Horrible to be underrated. To say he was unbeatable in 87-88 is a joke. Fought nobody. Watch his fights, his famous head movement and great jab were against bums. Never lasted. I asked my old man after the Spinks fight if anyone could beat Tyson, he said “Well Son theres this guy named Evander Holyfield”. And he took all bets at even odds when they finally fought. We love Mike. But his prime was as long as anyone else’s, it’s being great that barely lasted.

Who did any great fighter at their absolute peak beat? The kid, and yes he was still a kid, beat the best in the division and starched to previous lineal champions. No one is unbeatable. Not Louis at his best, not Ali. But at his best Tyson looked as unstoppable as any fighter before or after him.

[Blond Beast]

Style over Substance. But that’s my point he looked good doing it, why we liked him. He flattened people, but nobody’s bringing up how great the champs he beat were. I think almost everyone wanted him to be unstoppable. But he never was. Most people were wrong turns out. I had his game, his greatest hits tape. I just was told to not believe all the hype. I was told Ali stole sum rounds and prolly shoulda lost to Norton. I mean compliments were hard to come by.

[GelfSara]

Both Tyson and Ali lost about 3 years each in their primes due outside circumstances. However Ali came back and eventually returned to form as champion and Mike continued on with his slide that began with just prior to going to jail.

If Tyson was able to come back and capture the heavyweight title at least a couple more times like Ali did would he have gone down as GOAT?

The tragedy that is Mike Tyson from a boxing perspective is that he could indeed have--as Kevin Rooney suggested--been not only the youngest heavyweight champion, but the greatest; could have gone 60-0, retired undefeated, etc.

From the time he turned pro in 1985 until the Spinks fight in the summer of 1988 his career was on a swift upward path; watch some of the interviews with both Rooney and Steve Lott to better understand what happened and why it happened.

Had Mike Tyson--after prison--really wanted to be great again, he would have rehired Kevin Rooney. That he didn't spoke volumes about his state of mind.

[JAB5239]

Style over Substance. But that’s my point he looked good doing it, why we liked him. He flattened people, but nobody’s bringing up how great the champs he beat were. I think almost everyone wanted him to be unstoppable. But he never was. Most people were wrong turns out. I had his game, his greatest hits tape. I just was told to not believe all the hype. I was told Ali stole sum rounds and prolly shoulda lost to Norton. I mean compliments were hard to come by.

But hasn't it been that way with every champion? People, fans and historians have been picking hole in fighter from Sullivan until today. I'm not saying you're wrong. But it's pretty easy to pick a carreer apart. I've done it many times myself. I think I rank Tyson 8th or 9th, I do t remember off hand. But every great fighter will have their pitfalls with the people evaluating them.

[GelfSara]

It's true about everyone underestimating Holyfield at the time, and who can blame them.

But hindsight is key here, nobody knew that Holyfield had fully healed from his health problems at the time and was stronger than ever.

People viewed Holyfield as easy pickings for Tyson because Holyfield apparently did not dope for Bobby Czyz and looked terrible; if you compare the physique Holyfield had vs. Czyz (https://********/ds4hd8b-Q-g ) and the physique he had vs. Tyson (https://********/Kz8G1pPS_98), the difference is remarkable.

Tyson, meanwhile--while looking technically awful since leaving prison--had at least looked in shape physically vs. Seldon; against Holyfield he looked considerably softer; later it emerged that he been doing far more "partying" than training.

[GelfSara]

Style over Substance. But that’s my point he looked good doing it, why we liked him. He flattened people, but nobody’s bringing up how great the champs he beat were. I think almost everyone wanted him to be unstoppable. But he never was.

I disagree with your point of view, but I understand why you, and others like you, think as you do. It is far easier to believe boxers--or people generally--are consistent from situation to situation and from one time to another--baring the effect of aging, which was not a factor in the decline of Tyson--and that in this case, as the revisionist mythology goes, Tyson was "exposed"; was "a bully who backed down once someone fought back", "won through intimidation, and lost once he found someone he couldn't intimidate", etc.

It requires somewhat more thought and empathy to understand how someone could be--in one set of circumstances--extremely determined, mentally tough, and disciplined, highly skilled, sane--and in another set of circumstances exactly the opposite.

And that is merely scratching the surface.

[Zaroku]

Can't blame anything on Douglas. If Tyson didn't take the fight seriously that's on him. Fighters have won and lost throughout history. Tyson had time to prepare. If he didn't....it's nobody else is fault. Douglas was on a mission that day. There was no long count. Would he have won had Mike been in shape and focused? That's anyone's guess. That doesn't shoot Douglas up in history, even though I wouldn't argue your point. But it certainly hurts Tyson's standing as a 44-1 favorite. It is what it is.

Agreed.... nothing to add..

[QueensburyRules]

--- Yo, Blondie, all Mike did was set the record for the youngest heavy champ and then preceded to consolidate all the belts that his predecessor Tubby Lar could never attempt.

OK, you don't like him. Well neither do I, but I adhere to the truth.

[BKM-]

People viewed Holyfield as easy pickings for Tyson because Holyfield apparently did not dope for Bobby Czyz and looked terrible; if you compare the physique Holyfield had vs. Czyz (https://********/ds4hd8b-Q-g ) and the physique he had vs. Tyson (https://********/Kz8G1pPS_98), the difference is remarkable.

Tyson, meanwhile--while looking technically awful since leaving prison--had at least looked in shape physically vs. Seldon; against Holyfield he looked considerably softer; later it emerged that he been doing far more "partying" than training.

Aww poor Mike. Yet another fight he lost because he was partying too much. Poor guy couldn't catch a break.