Comparison Of Bare Knuckle Boxing/Pugilism & Traditional Martial Arts

[HeadBodyBodyBody]

It's just a pose for a picture, they didn't all actually fight like that.

That seems a likely thing; we also have to wonder how much of it is the artist taking licence.

We should be able to find photos as early as 1835, but I haven't, not of bare knuckle fighters posing for the camera anyway. The few photos we do have are of fighters in action and they are NOT posed like that.

I don't know too much about it all, but I just thought it was an interesting comparison to make, certainly not something I've heard being said before

[Lomadeaux]

I'd like for bareknuckle boxing to become an active sport again. Just to see what works and what doesn't.

For sure I think the punching of modern boxing will have to be modified for no wraps and gloves. But I believe the less upright stance and head movement of today's fighters would prove very useful in that environment. As would the footwork.

The fights lasted very long with very few punches thrown. One mistake and you're going to lose.

[Zaroku]

Interesting article I found recently

Original article here:
http://bunkaijutsu.com/2017/10/compa...-martial-arts/


I was a little intrigued recently when I came across the picture below on Facebook depicting a bare knuckle prize fight that took place in 1877. What intrigued me was that the punch being delivered looks a lot more like a punch that we’d find in Karate/Taekwondo/some styles of Kung Fu, than it does a modern boxing punch! The back is straight, head up, legs are practically identical to our forward stance, hips turned square on and shoulder not turned in as much as a modern boxers. Even the non-punching hand is back on the hip (hikite) like a Karate/TKD punch.



Here is the description that came with it!

“Here’s a historical peek into just how vicious even a “cordial” scuffle could be. The following is from an account of a bit of Pugilism staged in Dodge City in 1877.
The bout featured Nelson Whitman and Red Hanley, who was billed in the newspaper as the “Red Bird from the South.”
In the 42nd round, Hanley implored the referee to call Whitman off so he could, and I quote “put his right eye back where it belonged, set his jawbone and have the ragged edges trimmed off his ears where they had been chewed.”
The referee declined, telling him to “Stick it out as long as he could and to squeal when he’d had enough.”
That was round 42 if you’ll recall. The gritty Red Bird from the South, gritted his broken jaw and waded back in.
He lasted for 23 more rounds finally squealing in the 65th round. Again, this was a sanctioned, civilized match at the time. What was going on out of the mainstream is far far wilder“.

A tad more brutal than today’s boxing I’d say! But although a “civilised match” (sport), on many levels it would be close to real world street fighting.

At around the same time as this fight took place and across “the pond” (the Atlantic Ocean in case you’re not familiar with that nickname) we Brits being even more civilised introduced the Queensbury Rules.

I’d like to quote here from the boxing website, The Art Of Manliness, on the impact of these new rules:

“Perhaps the most important of these new rules required pugilists to don gloves. The wearing of gloves drastically changed the nature of the sport. The bare knuckled fisticuffer stood upright, leaned back slightly, and held his arms with forearms facing outward. The gloved boxer leans forward and protects his face with his gloves. While gloves made the sport less brutal in some ways, they made boxing more dangerous and deadly by allowing fighters to punch with far greater strength (the bare knuckled boxer had to mitigate the impact of his blows for fear of winding up with a broken hand). The bones of one’s head are harder than those in the hand; thus, gloves helped the hitter and hurt the hittee”.

So the bare knuckle fighter (which more closely resembles a real fight) would be more upright with arms facing outward, which is more like traditional Karate, Taekwondo and Kung Fu! I have written about the differences in sport/self protection guards before, but it is interesting to explore this subject in a bit more depth!



Let’s take a look at another bare knuckle picture:



Interestingly, whereas in the first picture shows the attacker using almost a text book martial arts forward stance, in this picture (and the one immediately above) where both of them are squaring off to each other, they are both in almost text book back stance. Check it out, heels almost in line, feet almost like a capital letter “L”, back leg more deeply bent than the front leg and as discussed above the arms are more forward than the modern boxers.

Furthermore, the hands are held one in front of the other, rather than on either side as modern boxers do. If they opened their hands, it would look a lot like the Wing Chun guard where the hands are kept on the centre line. With the fist closed though, it also looks a little like Karate’s Wedge Block (Kakiwake Uke) as in Heian/Pinan Yondan!

Another picture I found interesting is this one:



The position of the attacker is practically identical to near the end of Heian/Pinan Yondon, just before the knee kick and Kiai (shout). If you’re not familiar with that Kata, here it is in slow motion. The move in question is at 1 minute 27 seconds in:



This is usually explained as grabbing the opponents head and pulling down onto the rising knee. However, I have had some doubts about this application as it can take a lot strength to pull down the head of a resisting opponent. I don’t think it would be easy either for the average person to lift another of the ground as shown in the picture above.

However, imagine if the attacker in the picture above (guy on left) were to follow up from this position with a knee attack whilst bringing arms down, (as in the kata), thus dropping his opponent’s groin onto his own rising knee! Using this movement as a strike or a grab (whether it lifts the opponent of the ground or not) is likely to cause a flinch reaction where they would lean back away from the attack. This leaning back leaves them vulnerable to a rising knee in the next movement of the kata which should make it relatively easy to deliver to the groin. I would respectfully suggest that this is far easier than trying to pull down the head of a resisting opponent which is the usual explanation.

Conclusion

Although pugilism/bare knuckle fighting was technically a sport, it was back in it’s day very close to real street fighting with even less rules than today’s MMA. As mentioned above, the introduction of Queensbury rules and gloves made a big difference to the way they punched, their guard, the way they stood and the distribution of their body weight. I think it’s fair to say that the early American and European pugilism/bare knuckle fighting:
- was a very effective form of self defence as very few rules separated it from the real thing.
- has more in common with the traditional Eastern martial arts than it does with modern Western boxing.

I live in japan, near real dojo’s and shorinji Kempo is bad azz. These guys don’t allow filming or anything!

[Dempsey-Louis]

I don't know too much about it all, but I just thought it was an interesting comparison to make, certainly not something I've heard being said before

That's cool I don't know either just speculating.

[OctoberRed]

Reading this post caused me to think: "Bare knuckle" must be a retronym, right?

It must have been coined sometime after gloves first appeared/became common; around 1880.

I wonder what they called it before then? I suppose just fighting, but I wonder, if it was called 'prize fighting,' or 'boxing,' or is there a term lost to us today.

If you watch some of the movies with old fight scenes, like Gangs of NY, they make it appear that they did fight like that, or some of them did.

[Dempsey-Louis]

If you watch some of the movies with old fight scenes, like Gangs of NY, they make it appear that they did fight like that, or some of them did.

I am sorry I might be misunderstanding your post. I wasn't suggesting that they didn't fight bare knuckle but that they did't call it 'bare knuckle' until after gloves appeared.

I was looking at some old articles and the term 'bare knuckle' doesn't seem to exist until post 1880. The oldest article I could find with the term bare knuckle used it to separate a bare knuckle fight from a gloved fight.

That's what got me thinking; they wouldn't needed to denote a particular fight as being 'bare knuckle' until gloves appeared so they probably didn't use the term.

It looks to be a post 1880 retronym.

I did find a very early article from 1860 that used the phrase 'prize fight.' That seems to go way back. But bare knuckle seems to be a late 19th century term.

[Anthony342]

I am sorry I might be misunderstanding your post. I wasn't suggesting that they didn't fight bare knuckle but that they did't call it 'bare knuckle' until after gloves appeared.

I was looking at some old articles and the term 'bare knuckle' doesn't seem to exist until post 1880. The oldest article I could find with the term bare knuckle used it to separate a bare knuckle fight from a gloved fight.

That's what got me thinking; they wouldn't needed to denote a particular fight as being 'bare knuckle' until gloves appeared so they probably didn't use the term.

It looks to be a post 1880 retronym.

I did find a very early article from 1860 that used the phrase 'prize fight.' That seems to go way back. But bare knuckle seems to be a late 19th century term.

Yep. It's like how World War 1 wasn't called World War I until World War II happened. Until then, it was called The Great War.

[billeau2]

Interesting article I found recently

Original article here:
http://bunkaijutsu.com/2017/10/compa...-martial-arts/


I was a little intrigued recently when I came across the picture below on Facebook depicting a bare knuckle prize fight that took place in 1877. What intrigued me was that the punch being delivered looks a lot more like a punch that we’d find in Karate/Taekwondo/some styles of Kung Fu, than it does a modern boxing punch! The back is straight, head up, legs are practically identical to our forward stance, hips turned square on and shoulder not turned in as much as a modern boxers. Even the non-punching hand is back on the hip (hikite) like a Karate/TKD punch.



Here is the description that came with it!

“Here’s a historical peek into just how vicious even a “cordial” scuffle could be. The following is from an account of a bit of Pugilism staged in Dodge City in 1877.
The bout featured Nelson Whitman and Red Hanley, who was billed in the newspaper as the “Red Bird from the South.”
In the 42nd round, Hanley implored the referee to call Whitman off so he could, and I quote “put his right eye back where it belonged, set his jawbone and have the ragged edges trimmed off his ears where they had been chewed.”
The referee declined, telling him to “Stick it out as long as he could and to squeal when he’d had enough.”
That was round 42 if you’ll recall. The gritty Red Bird from the South, gritted his broken jaw and waded back in.
He lasted for 23 more rounds finally squealing in the 65th round. Again, this was a sanctioned, civilized match at the time. What was going on out of the mainstream is far far wilder“.

A tad more brutal than today’s boxing I’d say! But although a “civilised match” (sport), on many levels it would be close to real world street fighting.

At around the same time as this fight took place and across “the pond” (the Atlantic Ocean in case you’re not familiar with that nickname) we Brits being even more civilised introduced the Queensbury Rules.

I’d like to quote here from the boxing website, The Art Of Manliness, on the impact of these new rules:

“Perhaps the most important of these new rules required pugilists to don gloves. The wearing of gloves drastically changed the nature of the sport. The bare knuckled fisticuffer stood upright, leaned back slightly, and held his arms with forearms facing outward. The gloved boxer leans forward and protects his face with his gloves. While gloves made the sport less brutal in some ways, they made boxing more dangerous and deadly by allowing fighters to punch with far greater strength (the bare knuckled boxer had to mitigate the impact of his blows for fear of winding up with a broken hand). The bones of one’s head are harder than those in the hand; thus, gloves helped the hitter and hurt the hittee”.

So the bare knuckle fighter (which more closely resembles a real fight) would be more upright with arms facing outward, which is more like traditional Karate, Taekwondo and Kung Fu! I have written about the differences in sport/self protection guards before, but it is interesting to explore this subject in a bit more depth!



Let’s take a look at another bare knuckle picture:



Interestingly, whereas in the first picture shows the attacker using almost a text book martial arts forward stance, in this picture (and the one immediately above) where both of them are squaring off to each other, they are both in almost text book back stance. Check it out, heels almost in line, feet almost like a capital letter “L”, back leg more deeply bent than the front leg and as discussed above the arms are more forward than the modern boxers.

Furthermore, the hands are held one in front of the other, rather than on either side as modern boxers do. If they opened their hands, it would look a lot like the Wing Chun guard where the hands are kept on the centre line. With the fist closed though, it also looks a little like Karate’s Wedge Block (Kakiwake Uke) as in Heian/Pinan Yondan!

Another picture I found interesting is this one:



The position of the attacker is practically identical to near the end of Heian/Pinan Yondon, just before the knee kick and Kiai (shout). If you’re not familiar with that Kata, here it is in slow motion. The move in question is at 1 minute 27 seconds in:



This is usually explained as grabbing the opponents head and pulling down onto the rising knee. However, I have had some doubts about this application as it can take a lot strength to pull down the head of a resisting opponent. I don’t think it would be easy either for the average person to lift another of the ground as shown in the picture above.

However, imagine if the attacker in the picture above (guy on left) were to follow up from this position with a knee attack whilst bringing arms down, (as in the kata), thus dropping his opponent’s groin onto his own rising knee! Using this movement as a strike or a grab (whether it lifts the opponent of the ground or not) is likely to cause a flinch reaction where they would lean back away from the attack. This leaning back leaves them vulnerable to a rising knee in the next movement of the kata which should make it relatively easy to deliver to the groin. I would respectfully suggest that this is far easier than trying to pull down the head of a resisting opponent which is the usual explanation.

Conclusion

Although pugilism/bare knuckle fighting was technically a sport, it was back in it’s day very close to real street fighting with even less rules than today’s MMA. As mentioned above, the introduction of Queensbury rules and gloves made a big difference to the way they punched, their guard, the way they stood and the distribution of their body weight. I think it’s fair to say that the early American and European pugilism/bare knuckle fighting:
- was a very effective form of self defence as very few rules separated it from the real thing.
- has more in common with the traditional Eastern martial arts than it does with modern Western boxing.

don't know why they will not let me green K you... it is so nice to see others looking into this area of boxing as sometimes I feel like there is so much to be gleaned as a martial artist. Let me make a few points:

One must understand that original body positions came from physiological factors, how we best line up skeletally, so we can generate power structurally. In nature as I have said, we hit down on the other....but God has a sense of humor!!! because all our vital areas are located such that to catch them we must go against gravity and hit upwards. Your eyes, your throat, groin, are all protected hitting down, but can be caught hitting upwards.

The second major development was the use of weapons... Weapons ultimatly are a range factor advantage. So... when we fight we use things that project, as we close ground we use things that progressively require less and less range. The KoRyu systems of Japan, which are real used systems on the battlefield teach at the highest levels the use of the Kodachi and Katana, which are swords of various lengths... If I was a skilled Samurai I would be expected during a battle to avoid spearmen and confront a similar skilled opponent, whereiupon on horse I would have a large O dachi sword to cut down the enemy, progressing to the use of the smaller Katana where I could fight for Iuchi (mutual kill, used against an opponent who is better, we both die) or enter mortal combat which when done with armour would eventually leave us to grips...the man who then took the other man down would position himself topend, bend the head back with the helmet which was heavy, and use the kodachi or wakazashi short sword to slit the throat open and take the head... This was how lenghth was generally comprimised as the battle took sway in Jaapan.

Now in the west a similar thing occured where mercenaries and other wartime swordsmen had relatively long swords, but as the wars stopped the training emphaszed longer blades which were not as practival for combat...inevitably in a duel the bastard sword would previal: a short blade with a handle the size of the blade, where the man would charge past the long blade, come to gripps and cut the other man down...

When boxing started it was using reach primarily. Figg was a fencer who used the idea of maintaining reach, such as a skilled fencer would use against a bastard sword, to teach individuals how to set up and hit from a distance. But the punches themselves were often short, the lead being the most popular... the hand held upright was simply extended as the body stretched out in space to hit the opponent.

the old style of fighting was similar to martial arts because they both evolved from a similar pedigree: fighting with weapons. The more modern style of boxing was intended to emphasize the punches more than the integration of grappling, distancing and hitting vital areas. You simply cannot throw a lead with the palm held up, to the tip of the chin with the gloves we use today, instead we use the jab which takes the hand, has it travel, rotate, and thrust to and from the target with a pronounced motion. A lead does not have to travel this much and is much more succesfully executed with an emphasis on footwork and body weight transfer than the jab.

Finally, the old style protects the hands by hitting targets with proper hand position and fist placement. The older fighters had to watch for broken hands. karate has some similarities because the older Shuri Te Okinawan styles did not emphasize the arm twist we see by the time Karate has been exported to Japan. But as karate became more an expression of discipline and aesthetics the footwork became simply to step forward and back. Like boxing the emphasis became on the blows... in Shotokan karate the expression being: "One hit, one kill." Where as boxing reduced elements of range, and increased the types of punches that could be combined, Karate became karate-Do and reduced everything to become about hitting with the greatest force, including even the blocks which are designed to break the opponent's attacking limb.