Johnson, McVea, Wills, Jeannette...were they really all that great?

[Anthony342]

He was a great wrestling champ and made big money more than in the boxing game (where they say he was robbed by the mob ) but I doubt they were 'shoots' (legit matches) he was wrestling in.

Strangler Lewis had pretty much corrupted the wrestling game by the mid 20s and the last legit champ retired after pinning one of Lewis fake Champions in a classic double cross in 1926. After that I don't think there was any real wrestling after that.

The Strangler Lewis double cross is a great story.

What would the Strangler Lewis double cross be? I might have heard this story from Jim Cornette, but not sure.

[GhostofDempsey]

- -Anyone have JJOHNSON autobio that Nat purchased but never seems to have published for obvious reasons.

It seems it eventually was published and reads like Alice in Wonderland from excerpts I've read.

Was that the one that included Johnson’s admitted lie that he threw the Willard fight?

[Willie Pep 229]

I've read there was a combination of shoots and scripted matches after that until about the 1950s maybe, when the product got TV airtime. You're probably right, so I don't know why a win-loss record is listed for his wrestling career. Pretty cool he ended up getting to work with the great Lou Thesz. I remember reading Lewis having one of the longest bouts ever, lasting 5 and a half hours. I doubt fans would go for that now, as younger fans complained when the Last Man Standing match at last year's Wrestlemania between Edge and Randy Orton lasted 36 minutes. It was great storytelling IMO. These damn kids with their smart I gadgets and short attention spans just don't appreciate the slow burn stories and matches these days, it seems.

They might have taken the approach AEW does today, where the wrestlers with the better records are taken more seriously by fans and promoters and given title shots.

True that -- there probably were, with the wrestlers wanting shoots and promoters realizing the exhibitions brought the crowds to their feet; sold tickets.

You know two wrestlers cooperating with each other allows for some over the top moves; real wrestling can be very slow paced.

DIGRESSION: The 1920s wrestling promoters in a sense started what would become the Mr. Universe body building competitions as well with body beautiful exhibitions (wrestlers flexing in short-shorts); a bit of 1920s soft-p o r n for the ladies.

Promoters must of recognized that the 'new women' of the 1920s were now in the marketing mix (there is evidence that maybe one full third of the Dempsey-Carpentier crowd [1921] were women.)

THE DOUBLE CROSS: The big double cross took place with a guy named Stanislaus Zybszko a real champ who promised to throw away his title to a Strangler Lewis 'employee' from the Gold Dust Trio carnival act Lewis was touring with. The set-up champion was to be a guy named Munn, I think he had been a college football hero.

Zybszko the cross fighter in question decided to go with the 'double cross' -- he took Lewis' upfront payoff, let the word slip that he was in the tank, and then bet on himself and cleaned-up.

And to add salt to the open wound he then lost his title to a different wrestling carnival act who was Lewis' competition (and then bragged about his actions to the newspaper guys.)

Lewis had real egg on his face.

[Anthony342]

True that -- there probably were, with the wrestlers wanting shoots and promoters realizing the exhibitions brought the crowds to their feet; sold tickets.

You know two wrestlers cooperating with each other allows for some over the top moves; real wrestling can be very slow paced.

DIGRESSION: The 1920s wrestling promoters in a sense started what would become the Mr. Universe body building competitions as well with body beautiful exhibitions (wrestlers flexing in short-shorts); a bit of 1920s soft-p o r n for the ladies.

Promoters must of recognized that the 'new women' of the 1920s were now in the marketing mix (there is evidence that maybe one full third of the Dempsey-Carpentier crowd [1921] were women.)

THE DOUBLE CROSS: The big double cross took place with a guy named Stanislaus Zybszko a real champ who promised to throw away his title to a Strangler Lewis 'employee' from the Gold Dust Trio carnival act Lewis was touring with. The set-up champion was to be a guy named Munn, I think he had been a college football hero.

Zybszko the cross fighter in question decided to go with the 'double cross' -- he took Lewis' upfront payoff, let the word slip that he was in the tank, and then bet on himself and cleaned-up.

And to add salt to the open wound he then lost his title to a different wrestling carnival act who was Lewis' competition (and then bragged about his actions to the newspaper guys.)

Lewis had real egg on his face.

HAHA oops. Reminds me of a story former wrestling manager and promoter Jim Cornette told on the Dark Side of The Ring TV show when talking about the Montreal Screwjob when wanting to get the title off of someone in the 30s, I believe. He said since a title could still change hands by DQ back then the challenger and manager arranged it to make it look like he was bleeding and then claiming to the ref he was bitten by the champ, causing the disqualification and title change. Interesting stuff.

I've always heard a promoter named Toots Mondt made scripted matches popular in the early 20th century and called it "show wrestling" back then. Also remember reading he worked with Jack Tunney who played the scripted WWF President on TV for years, but was a Canadian promoter in real life and also worked with Jess McMahon and Vince Sr. aka Vincent J. McMahon.

I heard they might be doing a Season 3 of Dark Side, but no word yet on when it's set to premiere. That Brawl for All episode was good. I don't know why the hell they ever did that, having pro wrestlers compete in shoot fights that were basically boxing matches with takedowns. Not really MMA, since they wore boxing gloves, all because one wrestler thought he was the toughest guy in the locker room. It ended up causing multiple injuries, where guys were out of action for months, screwing up all kinds of planned pushes and storylines they had. And what did the winner, Bart Gunn, get as a reward? A match with Butterbean at Wrestlemania where he got knocked out in less then a minute. I guess that's what Bart got for knocking out the favorite, "Doctor Death" Steve Williams. Man, Vincent K. McMahon can be vindictive. One of the worst ideas by Vince Russo and in wrestling history.

[Ben Bolt]

The media often has a tendency to romanticize athletes

So also boxingsceneforum. What made the old ones great were, that they had to fight for survival, and that they were the best of their time.

To say that a 1920s Dempsey or a 1930s Louis wouldn't last long against today's fighters, is like swearing in church.
Generally, boxing fans won't admit the fact, that the sport and its athletes have progressed a lot through the years.

[GhostofDempsey]

So also boxingsceneforum. What made the old ones great were, that they had to fight for survival, and that they were the best of their time.

To say that a 1920s Dempsey or a 1930s Louis wouldn't last long against today's fighters, is like swearing in church.
Generally, boxing fans won't admit the fact, that the sport and its athletes have progressed a lot through the years.

I feel as though boxers and the sport as a while peaked from the 50’s - 70’s. In terms of skill, ability, durability, frequency of fighting etc. not to say there aren’t come great fighters today, but they don’t fight often enough against diverse opposition to develop some of the skills not often seen today.

[Ben Bolt]

I feel as though boxers and the sport as a while peaked from the 50’s - 70’s.

Actually, I prefer that era myself. And the era before that. Too many titles nowadays.

[QueensburyRules]

Was that the one that included Johnson’s admitted lie that he threw the Willard fight?

- -He also told the media and anyone who would listen he threw that fight.

Also joining the circus as I recall, but one thing he did that was real was briefly play 1st base for the greatest of the black barnstormers, the Phillie Giants. HOF pitcher and Negro League Baseball founder Rube Foster became the mgr and with both Texas natives became fast Friends. It was Rube offering JJ a berth on the team train to Canada as he fled his Mann Act sentencing.

Thought maybe someone had read what Nar purchased but refused to publish. Lots of insight on the real JJ, not the Sackler myth.

[GhostofDempsey]

- -He also told the media and anyone who would listen he threw that fight.

Also joining the circus as I recall, but one thing he did that was real was briefly play 1st base for the greatest of the black barnstormers, the Phillie Giants. HOF pitcher and Negro League Baseball founder Rube Foster became the mgr and with both Texas natives became fast Friends. It was Rube offering JJ a berth on the team train to Canada as he fled his Mann Act sentencing.

Thought maybe someone had read what Nar purchased but refused to publish. Lots of insight on the real JJ, not the Sackler myth.

I see my stalker made a counter thread to this one, in a pathetic and transparent effort to bash Dempsey once again. I tell you I own that kid’s soul, took it from him the day I signed onto this site. He’s flailing and flopping like a fish out of water, grasping.

His hero Johnson is the most romanticized champion ever, no fighter since could ever get that level of glory from such a resume. You think he would at least show some gratitude to a certain president to pardoned him. Something his president refused to do.

[QueensburyRules]

I see my stalker made a counter thread to this one, in a pathetic and transparent effort to bash Dempsey once again. I tell you I own that kid’s soul, took it from him the day I signed onto this site. He’s flailing and flopping like a fish out of water, grasping.

His hero Johnson is the most romanticized champion ever, no fighter since could ever get that level of glory from such a resume. You think he would at least show some gratitude to a certain president to pardoned him. Something his president refused to do.

- -Have no problem with the Romance of JJ, but I do take exception to his record as an alltime great.

Weensie created threads he bans me from because I have so much fun with him. He is a lot more mature than when I first started, so maybe in a few years he'll be man enough for full growed!