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Langfords quote was in 1925. He was not in any way in line for a title shot in 1925.
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Yes, OK, I think his was fishing around back in '22; so that does add validity to the quote.Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
He was never in line for a Dempsey shot, even back in '22 he wasn't really in the mix.
Funny thing, back in '22 he lost a "colored title' shot to Wills over ten rounds.Comment
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As Fleischer published more articles in favor of a Dempsey- Wills bout, public pressure began to mount in favor of the match. This pressure was given direction by Wills's manager, Paddy Mullins. The crafty manager realized that after the Fulton bout only Wills blocked Dempsey's complete domination of the heavyweight division. He believed that given enough time and pressure from the public, Dempsey's pride would force the champion into a contest with Wills. Furthermore, Mullins recognized that his fighter was past his prime. In 1922 Wills was thirty-three years old, an advanced age for a boxer. With these two factors weighing heavily on his mind, Mullins decided on his course of action: he would apply pressure to Dempsey's pride, twitting the champion about this inactivity whenever possible, and allow Wills to fight only inept newcomers to boxing or well-tamed veterans. Of course, Mullins' strategy did not go unobserved. Grantland Rice commented that three of Wills's 1922 fights did not prove the contender's ability, for "Kid Norfolk was too small and too scared, and the two Jacksons, Tush and Tat, were too clumsy, too light and too scared." But Mullins' program was at least a partial success; Wills, fed a diet of well-chewed meat, remained the leading contender, and the public began to clamor for a Wills-Dempsey bout.
Dempsey was irritated by the controversy. As a fighter, he was fully confident that he could defeat any man in the world. Any su****ions that Dempsey was afraid to fight Wills are nonsense. Years later, Dempsey said that he had wanted to fight Wills, but "Doc and Tex didn't think it would draw." Whether Rickard and Keams were convinced that the fight would not draw a large gate is uncertain; but there can be no doubt that after the fiasco of the Johnson-Jeffries bout, a match that Rickard promoted, the Madison Square Garden czar opposed interracial heavyweight title fights on principle. Rickard believed that to promote an interracial title bout was to tamper with the delicate balance of race relations in the United States. He certainly did not want to see a reenactment of the race rioting of 1910. Furthermore, he contended that the "political forces" -he always used the term rather nebulously-of America were against the bout. On the state level, he felt that the match would aid the antiboxmg forces that were attempting to repeal the Walker Boxing Law in Albany. Rickard also once told Nat Fleischer that "powerful forces" in Washington told him not to promote the fight.
Rickard's method of satisfying the public that favored the bout was to promise to make the match but never to produce it. He hoped that his policy of active inaction would eventually outlive the public's interest in the fight. So he announced on June 22, 1922, that he would promote the fight, without saying when or where it would be staged. Rickard did not take one step to promote the fight, but when pressure arose again, he signed the two fighters to a contract that stated no terms, time, or site. As one sportwriter noted, the contract was only "indication of good faith." And where there was little "good faith" such a document was worthless. A New York Times editorial appaluded Rickard's signing of the bout but questioned "When?" This question-along with queries about where and under what contions-Rickard was unwilling to answer. Undoubtedly he would have continued his active inaction had not events given him an out.
Rickard could thank William Muldoon, chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission. Fearing commercialism in the sport, Muldoon made an unexpected announcement in early September. Because "money-mad people in boxing have simply gone crazy," Muldoon took it upon himself to name the conditions under which a heavyweight title fight could be staged in New York. First, he said, at least forty thousand tickets had to be offered to the public at the price of two dollars or under. In addition, the top ringside seat could not be priced over fifteen dollars. Under these conditions, and only under these conditions, Muldoon added, would he sanction a Dempsey- Wills or a Dempsey-Willard bout. Rickard's reaction to Muldoon's conditions was uncharacteristically brief: "impossible." Caught in the middle of the controversy, Dempsey could only wait. He must have agreed with Don Marquis, then writing for the New York Tribune, that when the talking ended and the fighting commenced it would probably be 1982. Certainly that date was agreeable to Rickard vis-a-vis a Dempsey-Wills fight. What was not so sure was the position that Muldoon would take. Would he force Dempsey to fight Wills or would he ignore the issue? Indeed, what, if any, power did Muldoon actually possess? During the last third of 1922 these and other questions were discussed and debated, but not answered. Although the question of racism was not new to boxing, there was no precedent for the handling of the issue of commercialism. In early 1923, however, Muldoon found a solution for both problems.
OLYMPIA, the rambling, barrackslike wooden structure overlooking Long Island Sound and located in the rustic village of Purchase, New York, was the home of the Muldoon Hygienic Institute, the 1920s equivalent to today's jet-set health spa where the rich go to shed pounds and firm up their bodies. The owner of the institute, William Muldoon, was recognized at the turn of the century as the world's strongest and most perfectly developed human. In 1923, at the age of seventy-eight, he was still a marvelous physical specimen; indeed, his physical measurements were almost identical to what they had been a quarter of a century earlier when he was the heavyweight wrestling champion of the world. He was a man who inspired awe and trust. His taut, chestnut-brown face was perfectly complemented by his short gray hair, well-trimmed gray mustache, square jaw, and the cleft chin that jutted out to a position parallel with his well-formed nose. Except for his twisted, cauliflowered ears, he was a remarkably handsome man. In fact, in physical appearance, moral tenacity, and sheer forthrightness, he resembled Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Undoubtedly, Muldoon's respectability as much as his athletic background influenced Governor Nathan L. Miller's decision to make him chairman of the New York State Athletic Commission in June, 1921. As Nat Fleischer, editor of the Ring reported in early 1922, Muldoon was the ideal commissioner.
On February 4, 1923, Muldoon summoned New York City sports reporters to an impromptu press conference at his Olympia estate. His subject for the day's lecture was most serious: heavyweight championship bouts. As the reporters scribbled notes, Muldoon said he would not sanction any heavyweight title matches in the state of New York. His primary concern was the erosion of the moral integrity of boxing, which he believed to be caused by cancerous commercialism. How, he asked, could Americans tolerate a heavyweight champion making more in ten minutes than the president of the United States makes in four years? Furthermore, he lambasted the press for its excessive coverage of the heavyweight division. In short, his reason for barring heavyweight title fights in the state of New York was the same as the explanation he offered several days earlier when he refused to sanction a Dempsey-Wills or a Dempsey-Willard fight in his jurisdiction: "It is the commercialized condition produced by money-mad promoters and managers which is responsible for the commission's opposition."
Muldoon's position is probably unique in sports history. In essence, the legal representative of boxing was decrying the expenditure of too much money and an excess of publicity given to his sport. His actual motives for banning heavyweight title fights, however, were not as pure as his public statements. In a classic example of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face, Muldoon chose to prohibit a championship fight because he did not want Dempsey to battle Harry Wills, the black New Orleans heavyweight who was the current number one contender. To be sure, Muldoon never said as much; his racism, although bone deep, was not the ugly, public brand. And his friend and biographer, Edward Van Every, claimed that "orders from a very high place" forced him to prohibit the contest. However, Muldoon's constant references to commercialism and his continued claims that all talk of discrimination and racism was "laughable" were just a well disguised front for his deeper feelings. Even Nat Fleischer, who firmly defended Muldoon in the face of heavy criticism, was "opposed to his continued ban against Harry Wills ... for no other reason than [that] he is a negro."
Had Tex Rickard demanded the match, however, Muldoon would certainly have relented. But Rickard was in no position to push. His personal problems of 1922 had shaken him to such an extent that his close friend Rex Beach believed he would never be able to recover. The sense of humiliation hung over him like a dark cloud, but even if he had been as exuberant as he was in 1921, it is doubtful whether he would have tried seriously to match Dempsey and Wills. As Nat Fleischer wrote, Dempsey and Wills "never fought because Tex Rickard refused to promote it."Comment
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Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View PostOriginally posted by Dempsey-Louis View Post
Houdini is blatantly lying. The quotation was indeed from 1922. Anything to fit your agenda, huh Houdini?
By the way, according to boxrec (since they give documentation), Wills and Langford fought 17 times.
13 Wins for Wills
2 Wins for Langford
2 Draws.Last edited by travestyny; 03-17-2018, 11:15 PM.Comment
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I wonder what offer you are referring to.Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
Bill Brady (promoter for Corbett and Jeffries) tried to steal Dempsey from Rickard by offering Dempsey a $200,000 guarantee, plus a percentage (to fight Wills) in January of '22, He claimed he would put 50K forfeit money in escrow. Doc Kearns claimed that Brady never came across with the promised money and walked away from the offer.
I suspect Kearns was just screwing with Rickard and never took Brady seriously.Comment
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I want to share this with you regarding public sentiment against the fight (mixed fights).
On March 5th of '22 Harry Frazee owner of the Boston Red Sox offered Dempsey a $300.000 guarantee for a Wills fight.
Frazee mention possibly having the fight at Boyles Thirty Acres (NJ) or at Fenway Park Boston.
All he did was make a public offer and mention possible venues.
The very next day on March 6th the Boston Fight Commission announced that Fenway Park was not available because 'no such fights' would be staged in Boston.
A month later, as I posted before New Jersey pulled out as well.
All throughout when Rickard complained that he thought the public might not accept the fight (Wills-Dempsey) he was only half lying, only half making an excuse. No one was really certain they could make the fight work.
There was much more resistance to the fight then we appreciate today.Comment
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Good article, good assessment of Rickard's intentions, it's pretty much the way I thought it played out. But I also think Doc Kearns' desire for a fight out west (away from Rickard, e.g. Shelby MT) played a big part in blocking the Wills fight as well.
There was one point where Kearns (trying to do an end-run around Rickard while Dempsey was out of the country) tried to promote a Dempsey-Wills fight in Montreal, but in the end that fell through as well.
I have to admit, I never excepted to come out of the read knowing that Muldoon had such a 'well formed nose.' LOL
Do you have a source reference for the article?Comment
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Originally posted by Dempsey-Louis View Post
Sure, there was some resistance to the fight. I never doubted that. It seems that everyone wants to focus on Wills because he is the only one of the prominent black contenders that it can be said that Dempsey tried to fight. The doubts I have are about how hard he really tried to get this fight made. When New York told him to fight Wills or lose his license, he walked away. It was said that Rickard was the problem, but he walked away from Rickard in 1923 to make a fight with Gibbons.
There were various promoters that were willing to have the fight, but apparently they couldn't come up with enough money to please Dempsey...? The whole mess seems like Mayweather/Pacquiao all over, without the racial element. Dempsey eliminated the color-line in 1920. Why couldn't he have said Wills is the fight he wants and have tried to force it. I don't know the details of why he wouldn't have it in NY when they tried to force him to have it there.
While I'm willing to accept that he wanted the fight, I still have my su****ions that he didn't really want it as much as some say he did. I've heard everything from Tex Rickard is worried about race riots, to Tex Rickard also wanted it but thought it would make the heavyweight championship worthless, to Dempsey wasn't offered enough money. It could have been all of those. It could have been none. I have no idea. Do I personally think Dempsey was afraid of Wills? I don't. But was the fear of potentially losing to a black fighter the reason that he/they steered clear? Perhaps.
I've said it since long ago. I believe Arum was steering Pacquiao clear of Mayweather. Floyd was pretty much done with trying to make the fight through dealing with Arum. Finally he accosts Pacquiao at a basketball game. The ball gets rolling in a way that it couldn't be stopped, and the fight was made. I just wonder if Dempsey really wanted it, could more have been done? Dempsey had been seen as going around Rickard before. Could he have done his best to go around Rickard (and Kearns)?
These are all things that I feel I'm not equipped to answer. I'm not against trying to flush out more info about this if you guys want to continue discussing Wills. Just want to make it clear that Wills was never my focus here because I usually take the stance that if someone says something, I'm in no position to deny what he said. Dempsey said he wanted the fight. I can't prove that he didn't want it. I'll look more into it to see if there is anything interesting that can be added.Comment
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I got a notification from you about your previous post, but I don't see you quoting me or mentioning me in your post. I think that has happened a few times with you. Don't know how you are doing that! lolOriginally posted by Dempsey-Louis View Post
So I'm not sure if this one also was for me (I didn't get a notification about it). Are you asking me about an article?Comment
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I have to disagree with you regarding Dempsey calling his own shots. It is foolish for any fighter to give away a percentage of himself and then not take the advise. I believe the same premise holds for the Joe Jeanette situation. You take your manager's advise.Originally posted by travestyny View Post
It is better to argue that Kearns should have done the end run around Rickard, not Demspey, and as I posted above Kearns did try to make a Wills-Demspey fight in Montreal but couldn't get enough solid backing.Comment
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