Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

Here is what Johnson's record looked like for his last 20 fights after getting KTFO by Willard:

Frank Crozier 3-4
Arthur Craven Debut
Blink McCloskey 40-44-31
Jim Flynn Debut
Bob Roper 4-1-1
Tom Cowler 48-21-2
Marty Cutler 0-10-4
Bob Wilson Debut
George Roberts Debut
Farmer Lodge 12-14-1
Jack Thompson 21-20-6
Pat Lester 22-5-3
Bob Lawson 28-14-4
Brad Simmons 15-4-2
Bearcat Wright 37-11-7
Bill Hartwell 14-6-4
Rough House Wilson 0-1-0
Brad Simmons 27-12-4
Brad Simmons 28-13-4

He lost five of those fights.

For all the hype surrounding Johnson, it's hard to make an argument that he wasn't overrated. If anything Sam Langford deserved all the glory, but he was never champion so Johnson got the press.

By the way, how ****** do you have to be to make a big deal about his record from the age of 37 to mutha****ing 53????

[BattlingNelson]

Here is what Johnson's record looked like for his last 20 fights after getting KTFO by Willard:

Frank Crozier 3-4
Arthur Craven Debut
Blink McCloskey 40-44-31
Jim Flynn Debut
Bob Roper 4-1-1
Tom Cowler 48-21-2
Marty Cutler 0-10-4
Bob Wilson Debut
George Roberts Debut
Farmer Lodge 12-14-1
Jack Thompson 21-20-6
Pat Lester 22-5-3
Bob Lawson 28-14-4
Brad Simmons 15-4-2
Bearcat Wright 37-11-7
Bill Hartwell 14-6-4
Rough House Wilson 0-1-0
Brad Simmons 27-12-4
Brad Simmons 28-13-4

He lost five of those fights.

For all the hype surrounding Johnson, it's hard to make an argument that he wasn't overrated. If anything Sam Langford deserved all the glory, but he was never champion so Johnson got the press.

Epic name!

[Dempsey-Louis]

Epic name!

Rough House Wilson is a good name, not bad, not bad, but IMO the prize still goes to 'Mysterious Billy Smith'

Me thinks, that some of the best names we come across (like Rough House Wilson) end up just being monikers the newspapers attach to an unknown fighter. Wilson had only two fights for a career record of 0-2, and it's even possible it wasn't the same guy both times.

You run into a lot of Kid Chicago(s), Young Casey(s), and Coca Cola Kid(s), often with 0-1 records. And needless to say you can imagine how many "Battling(s)" there are. LOL

Johnson even fought one guy named "Cherokee" - just Cherokee, whose record of course was 0-1.

Many of these guys, I would bet, probably fought multiple times but under different names each time.

Now on the other hand Mysterious Billy Smith not only had a serious career 80+ fights but often got himself into the newspapers for other (not so good reasons) as well.

I have been collecting some of the better names.

[Dempsey-Louis]

"I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had. In 1916 I came here and had a couple of fights and won them. I was managed by a fellow named John the Barber. After winning these two fights he said, "I got a good fight for you." I said, "Who is it?" He says, "Sam Langford." I said, "Not me! Goodbye!" He was a great fighter and I didn't have the experience to fight a man like that. He was a hell of a puncher, never been licked, so why should I get my brains knocked out for nothing? Even at my best I don't know whether I could lick him or not."

-Jack Dempsey 1970.

It is not my intent to disrespect Langford, but it's the timing of the quote that make me think that way.

That is a cool quote but it is about 1916, the quote I was reacting to was from six years later and from Kearns not Barber. By then Langford was an old fighter (blind in one eye) and Dempsey was much more experienced.

I still think Kearns was just being polite to the old fighter.

I just can't see Kearns being scare of Langford in '22. But who knows? Or maybe it was just more of the damn color line getting in the way again?

[Dempsey-Louis]

Finally! I found a statement from Jack Dempsey himself about the Joe Jeanette incident. Now you guys can all stop claiming I'm lying. You can also stop claiming that he didn't duck him. Here, he clearly draws a distinction between facing ANY WHITE MAN and a COLORED BOY!

And don't tell me it wasn't from Dempsey himself, because the article is credited as being by him, he gives direct quotations in it, and he states clearly that he remembers it!!!!




Hmmmmm.....I wonder what you think of that, Mr.MojoRisin'. Looks like a duck to me. He tucked tail according with Kearns wishes and walked away from a fight in which he stated clearly that he would have fought ANY white man.

Just underlining the distinction he used for man and boy because....well...honestly I thought it was out of character for him. But that's how people talked back then so I won't go overboard about that.

Still, I think I've proven my point.

Two things buddy, it still the same situation, Dempsey would be a fool to take a tough fight at the last minute (literally the last minute as he was stepping into the ring he found out they switched opponents)

Why do you feel Dempsey (or any fighter) had an obligation to take a fight with a last minute switch? Do you think fighters should be treated in that manner for the convenience of others?

An secondly if you read it closely the "I didn't agree to fight a color boy" quote is the newspaper quoting Kearns quoting Dempsey, for what ever that's worth.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Hold up. Wait a second. I just noticed something.

So, it is often stated that Dempsey's first act after winning the title was to draw the color-line. That was in 1919, right? And you're saying that it was not his choice, but only his manager and promoter's choice, right? Ok.

Just noticed the date on Dempsey-Louis' post. Here it says that Dempsey erased the color-line. That was in 1920. Here it is again:



Ok, so he erased the color line in July 1920. Apparently he had the autonomy to do so.

Then, back to my quotation. Here he is stating that he has drawn the color-line yet again, just like Dempsey-Louis said, waffling back and forth:




It clearly states that he drew the color-line. That was in July 1921.


So how the hell are you to argue that he had no autonomy in deciding to draw the color line when he initially drew the color-line, then decided that there would be no color-line because he needs the money and he will face any challenger, and then goes back on this and says that he will not face any colored man??? Seems he had a choice on whether to draw the color-line or not!


Congratulations. You were just proven wrong

My favorite one is where Dempsey traveled out to Chicago in the spring of '22 to watch his sparing partner Bill Tate battle Harry Wills. Here Dempsey is quoted as saying if 'Bill proves himself a better man [against Wills] he deserves consideration.' Now what the hell is that suppose to mean, his 'colored' sparring partner yes, but Wills no? What logic?

[Dempsey-Louis]

Here is another one I think you'll love.

In May of '22 Dempsey returned from a trip across the pond. The press caught up to him at the dock, (before Rickard and Kearns could reel him in), Dempsey wearing a monocle (like Tyson, he was just a big kid) announced that he had just signed to fight Carpentier (again) in June of 1923. I would have loved to seen the look on Rickard and Kearn's faces when that came out of Dempsey's mouth.

Kearns spent the next two days disclaiming the fight (and of course it never happened; besides Battling Siki took a Carpentier rematch off the table anyway.

P.S. After Siki beat Carpentier, the New York press switched its allegiance from Wills to Siki, calling for a Demspey-Siki fight. When it was convenient (those people you said were trying to do the right thing) didn't hesitate to put Harry Wills on the back burner

[GhostofDempsey]

Gotta say, I'm not too impressed by McVea in this footage of his fight with Battling Jim Johnson (a guy Dempsey KO'd cold in sparring). Stiff, no jab, charges in face first, clincher. Can't understand why Jack Johnson would duck McVea while champion, from footage I have seen of Johnson I would think he could handle McVea as easily as he did when he fought him with less than ten fights to his name.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Gotta say, I'm not too impressed by McVea in this footage of his fight with Battling Jim Johnson (a guy Dempsey KO'd cold in sparring). Stiff, no jab, charges in face first, clincher. Can't understand why Jack Johnson would duck McVea while champion, from footage I have seen of Johnson I would think he could handle McVea as easily as he did when he fought him with less than ten fights to his name.

I agree not as impressive as we are always lead to believe. The best part of that fight is when the ring announcer used the ring post to hold his hat. (Boy that ring looks so unsafe.)

I think Johnson drew the color line because he knew there was MUCH more money in fighting 'white hopes.'

[Mr.MojoRisin']

So Jack Johnson gets no credit for fighting Langford when Sam was young...but Jack Dempsey gets a pass for not fighting Langford when Sam was a veteran?

You have a bit of a flexible double standard going there, don't you?

Johnson gets credit for fighting a good middleweight Langford not a good heavyweight Langford.

Where do you think Dempsey's standing in the division was at the time the Langford fight was offered? Do you think he was a top contender? Dempsey was a prospect. At best. He had the world's crappiest manager who was trying to put him in with a killer to make a quick buck.