Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

Lmfao still you! You're the one claiming Jeanette ran Dempsey out of New York!



Your reading ability sucks. Reread what I said then respond with something logical.




Here we go again. You're lack on knowledge about the era coming through. After the Johnson fight Dempsey went back west and pretty much reached rock bottom. He lost motivation for fighting and considered quiting. It wasn't until he hooked up with Kearns in 1917 that things picked up. By 1919 he was pretty much known as the guy that came out of obscurity and was knocking everyone out in 1918. It was at this time (late 1918) that fights with top black fighters could have been proposed. I ask you again, who was there to fight? Langford was busy fighting Dempsey's sparring partners and getting knocked out by Harry Wills as well as losing to Fred Fulton who Dempsey had knocked out in 30 seconds.



Then why do we have judges in boxing? Why don't we just ask the fighters themselves who won??

You basically said nothing in this entire post. I don't see a reason to repeat myself.

[travestyny]

So you are not saying that Dempsey himself drew the color line? Drawing the color line is racist if you haven't figured that out yet.

Ok. Then YOU are saying that Dempsey was racist. IT'S A DIRECT FVKCKING QUOTATION.

As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter, one who will whip the very best of them. You know as much about Johnson as I do. As for Willard—l'll fight him any time—and lick him, too.”

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SU19210709.2.95

HE SAID IT. IT'S RIGHT THERE. SO MAYBE YOU ARE CALLING HIM A RACIST. DON'T PUT THAT SHlT ON ME!

You literally are taking quotes out of context such as when Dempsey said "I will never fight a colored man." and using them as evidence he ducked black fighters. Your entire premise is that he ducked black fighters. There was only one black fighter in the era that was worth fighting when Jack got on top and that was Wills. Dempsey tried going through with the fight and the promoter failed to pay a single dollar.

So he could only find 2 black fighters to fight during his entire career. Marvelous

Langford asked for a fight in the 20's as I showed. Jack Johnson also asked for a fight. They were turned down. If your boy drew the color line, then that's on him. Don't know why you're so upset with me about it!

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Dude, what you said just basically tells me it was a duck. As I mentioned, Bill Tate was 1 year younger than Dempsey with the same amount of professional fights as Dempsey, yet he fought Sam Langford at this same precise time that Dempsey was offered the fight. Actually twice. One draw and one win for Tate.

To be clear, I can see your point about him wanting to swerve this, but I think you are also ignoring that Langford was 33 with over 100 fights at this time. Dempsey also admits that he was bigger than Langford. The only reason that Dempsey gave for not taking the fight was that he was scared. That's cool and honestly I don't hold this against him very much. But for him to go his career only fighting 2 black boxers...one who finished his career 0-4 and the other who fought him to a draw and broke 3 of his ribs...then getting his license suspended in NY for refusing Wills....well, like I said, if that's all on his managers, then ok. Should he take any blame at all, especially before he became champ? I think it can be debated.

So let me get this straight. If a fighter that is a prospect AT BEST refuses a fight with a prime veteran KILLER that has 10 years of experience and probably a hundred professional fights on him then its a duck? So if Lomachenko offered Ryan Garcia a title shot right now and Garcia refused would that be a duck? That's your logic at this point. Langford was at the top of the division, Dempsey was at prospect status.

Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Just take a look at the fight negotiations. Boston Bearcat did not end his career 0-4. Boxrec has missing information just like it doesn't have all of Dempsey's fights.

If you really think that Johnson was the reason Dempsey didn't fight black fighters then your just willfully ignorant. Johnson gave him trouble. Between that, management issues, money issues, and marital issues Dempsey was ready to call it quits on the boxing business. Dempsey didn't fight any black fighters after that because there wasn't anyone around worth fighting. Just because Tate fought Langford doesn't make him a worthy opponent of Dempsey. Tate was never regarded as a force in the division. Not even a contender.

You're looking at fighters from that era and automatically associating black with contender status.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You basically said nothing in this entire post. I don't see a reason to repeat myself.

I disproved your evidence. You said Dempsey admitting he felt like he lost to Johnson was an indicator that he loss. I disproved that by explaining we don't let fighters judge their own fights for a reason.

I schooled you on Dempsey from 1917-1919 which is incredibly important. It showed him being moved along from an unknown fighting for nickels and dimes to an actual contender and most likely next champion.

[travestyny]

So let me get this straight. If a fighter that is a prospect AT BEST refuses a fight with a prime veteran KILLER that has 10 years of experience and probably a hundred professional fights on him then its a duck? So if Lomachenko offered Ryan Garcia a title shot right now and Garcia refused would that be a duck? That's your logic at this point. Langford was at the top of the division, Dempsey was at prospect status.

Nope. Go ask your boy GhostofDempsey what he thinks about Tank and Lomachenko.

The point is Wills was 33 and had over 100 fights. That could have been a reason TO TAKE THE FIGHT. Also, Dempsey was shown up by Tate taking the fight. Don't you think so?

All I know is that Dempsey gave ONE reason for not taking the fight. He said he was scared.

Dempsey didn't duck Wills. Just take a look at the fight negotiations. Boston Bearcat did not end his career 0-4. Boxrec has missing information just like it doesn't have all of Dempsey's fights.

If you really think that Johnson was the reason Dempsey didn't fight black fighters then your just willfully ignorant. Johnson gave him trouble. Between that, management issues, money issues, and marital issues Dempsey was ready to call it quits on the boxing business. Dempsey didn't fight any black fighters after that because there wasn't anyone around worth fighting. Just because Tate fought Langford doesn't make him a worthy opponent of Dempsey. Tate was never regarded as a force in the division. Not even a contender.

You're looking at fighters from that era and automatically associating black with contender status.

Say what? How many times are you going to add conjecture to my statements. You are often way off.

[travestyny]

I disproved your evidence. You said Dempsey admitting he felt like he lost to Johnson was an indicator that he loss. I disproved that by explaining we don't let fighters judge their own fights for a reason.

I don't think you disproved anything. I've seen more quotes saying they believed Johnson won than Dempsey and even posted a quotation from boxing writers that said the consensus was that Johnson got the nod. The official result was a draw I suppose, so good. Don't know why this is even still on the agenda here.

But says something that you guys paint Dempsey as being so honest, yet you won't believe him when he says he felt he lost

I schooled you on Dempsey from 1917-1919 which is incredibly important. It showed him being moved along from an unknown fighting for nickels and dimes to an actual contender and most likely next champion.

You schooled me? You can't even read properly and you are blatantly ducking all of the quotations that I've posted. You seem upset. Don't be mad at me. I'm just giving you the quotations. Take it up with the source...Dempsey himself in some cases

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Ok. Then YOU are saying that Dempsey was racist. IT'S A DIRECT FVKCKING QUOTATION.

I really rattled you haven't I? Got you typing in all caps and everything.

No, Dempsey didn't draw the color line his managers did.

HE SAID IT. IT'S RIGHT THERE. SO MAYBE YOU ARE CALLING HIM A RACIST. DON'T PUT THAT SHlT ON ME!

Dempsey said it all right but it wasn't his wishes. It was his management. If you haven't noticed Dempsey had absolutely zero control over who he defended against. That was all Kearns and Rickard.

So he could only find 2 black fighters to fight during his entire career. Marvelous

The onus is on you to prove that Dempsey fought in an era that was stacked with great black fighters. So far both of the black fighters that you claim Dempsey ducked (Langford and Jeanette) started their careers 10-12 years before Dempsey. When he was 9 years old. Let that sink in.

Langford asked for a fight in the 20's as I showed. Jack Johnson also asked for a fight. They were turned down.

So what? Shannon Briggs called Wlad out for years, does that mean Wlad ducked him? What exactly had Johnson and Langford done during the 20s to deserve a title shot? Johnson couldn't even fight in the united states and was busy on the run and going to jail. Sure they both were winning the majority of their fights but against who? A bunch of cans.

If your boy drew the color line, then that's on him. Don't know why you're so upset with me about it!

I'm probably upset because your so ******. You don't have any knowledge on the era. I mean you actually think fighters deserve a shot at the title just for calling Dempsey out.

Dempsey didn't draw the color line, his Kearns and Rickard did.

[travestyny]

I really rattled you haven't I? Got you typing in all caps and everything.

No, Dempsey didn't draw the color line his managers did.



Dempsey said it all right but it wasn't his wishes. It was his management. If you haven't noticed Dempsey had absolutely zero control over who he defended against. That was all Kearns and Rickard.




The onus is on you to prove that Dempsey fought in an era that was stacked with great black fighters. So far both of the black fighters that you claim Dempsey ducked (Langford and Jeanette) started their careers 10-12 years before Dempsey. When he was 9 years old. Let that sink in.



So what? Shannon Briggs called Wlad out for years, does that mean Wlad ducked him? What exactly had Johnson and Langford done during the 20s to deserve a title shot? Johnson couldn't even fight in the united states and was busy on the run and going to jail. Sure they both were winning the majority of their fights but against who? A bunch of cans.




I'm probably upset because your so ******. You don't have any knowledge on the era. I mean you actually think fighters deserve a shot at the title just for calling Dempsey out.

Dempsey didn't draw the color line, his Kearns and Rickard did.

You rattle me? LMAOO. That's the opposite.

Are you saying the quotation is false? yes or no? It's a direct quotation.

So...is it a false quotation?


You gotta be an illiterate muffucca to say Dempsey never drew the color-line when you have a direct quotation from Dempsey saying, "As I've drawn the color line."

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I don't think you disproved anything. I've seen more quotes saying they believed Johnson won than Dempsey and even posted a quotation from boxing writers that said the consensus was that Johnson got the nod. The official result was a draw I suppose, so good. Don't know why this is even still on the agenda here.

But says something that you guys paint Dempsey as being so honest, yet you won't believe him when he says he felt he lost

No actually I did. You used Dempsey's feelings on his performance as an indicator for the outcome of the fight. That's just not how boxing works.

You schooled me? You can't even read properly and you are blatantly ducking all of the quotations that I've posted. You seem upset. Don't be mad at me. I'm just giving you the quotations. Take it up with the source...Dempsey himself in some cases

You posted a few newspapers out of probably 20+ reporters that were there. Do you see the problem with this?

John Lester Johnson: "I said that night that he was going to be champion. That guy could really hit. He hit me so hard and so fast for a while there I could hardy get my breath."

Sounds like Johnson is saying Dempsey got the better of him here.

Again, a draw was the appropriate decision. The newspaper reports are reporting from a viewpoint of high expectations for Dempsey. He had a bad showing so they over exaggerated. You realize that these are just reporters right? They aren't actual fighters. It's like hanging onto every word of Dan Rafael regarding modern boxing.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Nope. Go ask your boy GhostofDempsey what he thinks about Tank and Lomachenko.

Sounds like you agree with me then. It's settled. Dempsey didn't duck Langford.

The point is Wills was 33 and had over 100 fights. That could have been a reason TO TAKE THE FIGHT. Also, Dempsey was shown up by Tate taking the fight. Don't you think so?

No, not at all. It was incredibly common for black fighters to fight each other because interracial bouts were very unfavorable by the public. Tate took a ton of fights with good heavyweights. He did it because he needed the cash. No other reason behind it. He wasn't trying to get a title shot, he was interested in making quick money like most fighters.

All I know is that Dempsey gave ONE reason for not taking the fight. He said he was scared.

Yeah, he was scared because he knew he wasn't a good enough fighter yet. According to him he says he didn't even know how to fight yet at that time. Obviously hyperbole but it gets the point across.

Say what? How many times are you going to add conjecture to my statements. You are often way off.

Every time a black fighter is brought up you assume they are worthy of a title shot. You claim Dempsey ducked Langford and Johnson in the 1920s which implies that you think they deserved a title shot.