Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[GhostofDempsey]

Here is a rather long but excellent read on Dempsey/Wills (mostly about Wills) that breaks down the fight that fell through.

http://www.boxing.com/the_trouble_with_harry.html

Show Me The Money

Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.

The Panther Cries Wolf

The heavyweight division continued to shake out; Tunney, Maloney, Delaney, Wills, Sharkey, Uzcundun and others were now in contention. In early 1926, Wills was offered $250,000 to fight Gene Tunney in a title eliminator, with the winner to meet the champion. Wills turned it down. Wills believed that fighting Dempsey was now a matter of entitlement. It was fateful decision. A Wills-Tunney fight may have changed the course of events. In any case the Tunney-Dempsey match was then scheduled.

Still there seemed no end to the claims, even as the Dempsey-Tunney fight approached. On August 6, 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.

Then everything changed. Dempsey lost in an upset to Tunney, who then became champion. In October, Wills himself returned to the ring. At Brooklyn National League Park, a young and hungry Dempsey-esque heavyweight named Jack Sharkey brought Wills’ winning streak to an end. According to Time magazine, “Sharkey chopped and hacked at Wills, closed his eye, made his mouth bleed; all through the fight.” Wills reportedly backhanded, butted, and hit Sharkey during the breaks in an effort to discourage his opponent. After numerous warnings by the referee, Wills was disqualified in the 13th round. Wills soldiered on for several more fights, but retired from boxing in 1932 and became a successful real estate investor.

[travestyny]

Guys, it clearly states in my information when the money was supposed to arrive.


It also clearly states that Dempsey had signed the contract.


The court makes this very clear. He breached the contract before the money was even set to arrive. I don't see how any of you can get around that. It's staring you right in front of the face. Unless you are arguing that he didn't sign the contract, which the court cleary says he did.


So unless now your argument is that he didn't read the contract, I don't think you have any legs to stand on.

[travestyny]

Uh no. You're missing some stuff.



They couldn't prove they could pay either fighter.





That quote is from Dempsey's autobiography. Even if they were able to get the money and everything it is still unclear whether or not the fight could still have taken place I mean the governor of Illinois AND the federal government were against it.



Again, here Dempsey found out for himself that they didn't have even a measly 25 grand to pay him. Yet you think they would have been able to pull 2 million out of thin air.

The facts of the case are pretty clear according to the court. He was to receive $300,000 on August 5th. It says this clearly. He breached the contract on July 10th.

Though the court allowed Dempsey to get off nearly scott free, don't get it twisted. The court clearly states that Dempsey signed the contract and should be held liable for some damages for pulling out of the fight and breaking the contract. I mean, the court even granted an injunction to stop Dempsey from fighting Tunney. After the promoter found out that they were only able to win back a measly amount, I'm sure they weren't worried about bringing Dempsey up on contempt charges.

It's right there. Why would Dempsey sign the contract saying he would receive the money August 5th if he was expecting to see the money earlier. That makes zero sense. Even the court says this clearly:

We are unable to conceive upon what theory the defendant could contend that there was no contract, as it appears to be admitted in the proceeding here and bears his signature and the amounts involved are sufficiently large to have created a rather lasting impression on the mind of anyone signing such an agreement

[travestyny]

OK the guy sued Dempsey because Dempsey went with Rickard (and Tunney) and not with him and Wills, why does that mean he is ducking?

He had the Tunney fight for $750, 000 guarantee, plus film rights with Rickard, a promoter he knew could deliver.

Why should he take a Chicago fight with a lesser promoter, in a 'mixed bout' that no one can be sure will turn out OK, just to please your 100 year old sense of justice?

120,000 showed up in Phily in '26 so why would Dempsey want to take the Chicago fight, a mixed bout, with a lesser promoter?

If seems to me if Dempsey doesn't do exactly what suits your argument, you immediately conclude he was 'ducking' for racial reasons. Try backing up a bit, and looking at it from Dempsey's POV before you pass judgement.

Oh, and of course the suit was frivolous and went no where; it is akin to the manner in which Donald Trump sues people, not for justice, but instead just to harass.

Whoa, dude. Relax.

Why are you saying "to please your 100 year old sense of justice"??? I never mentioned anything like that.

And I didn't say he was ducking for racial reasons here.

The suit wasn't frivolous. It's true that they weren't able to win much back, but this is only because they couldn't prove how much the fight would bring in. They certainly didn't do it just to harass him. They tried to prove it would bring in about 2million but they couldn't. They were only entitled to what they spent from the time of the signing to the time of the breach, which didn't amount to much.

The point I'm making is Dempsey signed the contract, according to the court. It said clearly when he was to get the money. He clearly backed out of the contract that HE signed. I don't see how that could be gotten around, to be honest. If you sign a contract but you're offered more later by someone else, you ducked out of your commitment. He shouldn't go around claiming that he wanted to fight Wills since 1919....that the fight didn't happen because of racial reasons...and that he wouldn't stand for it anymore and would demand the fight to happen and offer a winner takes all bout (have you read about this???) when he knows that the fight was offered, he signed a contract for it to happen, and then he broke the contract.

[travestyny]

I'm not sure how any of your information applies to what took place in court.

Here is a rather long but excellent read on Dempsey/Wills (mostly about Wills) that breaks down the fight that fell through.

http://www.boxing.com/the_trouble_with_harry.html

Show Me The Money

Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.

The contract that he signed was in March 1926. So this appears to be before that time. The court confirms that Dempsey signed the contract and breached the contract.

The Panther Cries Wolf

The heavyweight division continued to shake out; Tunney, Maloney, Delaney, Wills, Sharkey, Uzcundun and others were now in contention. In early 1926, Wills was offered $250,000 to fight Gene Tunney in a title eliminator, with the winner to meet the champion. Wills turned it down. Wills believed that fighting Dempsey was now a matter of entitlement. It was fateful decision. A Wills-Tunney fight may have changed the course of events. In any case the Tunney-Dempsey match was then scheduled.

Still there seemed no end to the claims, even as the Dempsey-Tunney fight approached. On August 6, 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.

Then everything changed. Dempsey lost in an upset to Tunney, who then became champion. In October, Wills himself returned to the ring. At Brooklyn National League Park, a young and hungry Dempsey-esque heavyweight named Jack Sharkey brought Wills’ winning streak to an end. According to Time magazine, “Sharkey chopped and hacked at Wills, closed his eye, made his mouth bleed; all through the fight.” Wills reportedly backhanded, butted, and hit Sharkey during the breaks in an effort to discourage his opponent. After numerous warnings by the referee, Wills was disqualified in the 13th round. Wills soldiered on for several more fights, but retired from boxing in 1932 and became a successful real estate investor.

According to Dempsey's letter entered into court, he was already training for Tunney at this time. Also, he was already taken to court by this time and it was agreed by the court that he breached the contract to fight Wills.


Sorry.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Whoa, dude. Relax.

Why are you saying "to please your 100 year old sense of justice"??? I never mentioned anything like that.

And I didn't say he was ducking for racial reasons here.

The suit wasn't frivolous. It's true that they weren't able to win much back, but this is only because they couldn't prove how much the fight would bring in. They certainly didn't do it just to harass him. They tried to prove it would bring in about 2million but they couldn't. They were only entitled to what they spent from the time of the signing to the time of the breach, which didn't amount to much.

The point I'm making is Dempsey signed the contract, according to the court. It said clearly when he was to get the money. He clearly backed out of the contract that HE signed. I don't see how that could be gotten around, to be honest. If you sign a contract but you're offered more later by someone else, you ducked out of your commitment. He shouldn't go around claiming that he wanted to fight Wills since 1919....that the fight didn't happen because of racial reasons...and that he wouldn't stand for it anymore and would demand the fight to happen and offer a winner takes all bout (have you read about this???) when he knows that the fight was offered, he signed a contract for it to happen, and then he broke the contract.

The 100 year old remark was just a jab - that the argument has literally been going on for almost a 100 years.

Going with your interpretation of Dempsey's actions, he took the bird in the hand (Rickard and Tunney) instead of a promise it looked like the promoters might not be able to deliver on. But that doesn't mean Dempsey was ducking Wills, but instead was 'ducking' a fight that just might turn out to be another fiasco like Shelby.

Tunney with Rickard was a sure thing, Rickard had already done it (the big fight) multiple times, these guys on the other hand were questionable. Dempsey was right in walking away from the contract. He wasn't ducking Wills, he was following the money.

P.S. I miss spoke before, Dempsey got $650,000 for the '26 fight and $750,000 for the rematch as challenger (Tunney, as champion got 850,000 for the rematch.)

P.S.S. Remember back in '22 Dempsey had unilaterally signed to fight Carpentier in Europe, Kearns made Dempsey walk away from that contract too.

[travestyny]

The 100 year old remark was just a jab - that the argument has literally been going on for almost a 100 years.

Going with your interpretation of Dempsey's actions, he took the bird in the bush (Rickard and Tunney) instead of a promise it looked like the promoters might not be able to deliver on. But that doesn't mean Dempsey was ducking Wills, but instead was 'ducking' a fight that just might turn out to be another fiasco like Shelby.

Tunney with Rickard was a sure thing, Rickard had already done it (the big fight) multiple times, these guys on the other hand were questionable. Dempsey was right in walking away from the contract. He wasn't ducking Wills, he was following the money.

P.S. I miss spoke before, Dempsey got $650,000 for the '26 fight and $750,000 for the rematch as challenger (Tunney, as champion got 850,000 for the rematch.)

Dempsey only had to wait until August 5th to know what was going on. According to GhostofDempsey's post, he was still open to accepting money for Wills after that time. This certainly doesn't add up. If he was still open to fighting Wills after that time, why would he break the contract and as a result have an injunction placed against him from fighting Tunney? There is so much about this that isn't adding up now. Look at this, from August 1926...the very month that he was taken to court and an injunction was place against him.




1. Claims that he wanted Wills since 1919.
No he didn't! He drew the color line in 1919 as has already been well established.

2. Claims that he never drew the color line.
Again, he's lying. Not only did he draw it in 1919. He drew it again in 1921. If he never drew the color line, why did he put out a statement in 1920 that he was erasing it...only to state that he was drawing it again in 1921?

3. Claims no promoter ever stepped up to promote the fight.
As I've shown, he broke a contract with a promoter for the fight. This is all according to a court of law!!! An injunction was granted. It was stated that the contract was legit and that he clearly broke the contract. He didn't even wait for the money to arrive.

4. Claims that he won't take it any longer and will demand the Wills fight.
This is what I was saying before. Why didn't he do this earlier since he claims to have wanted "ONLY ONE MAN" since 1919. Again, he states he wanted "ONLY ONE MAN" and wanted him since 1919. This statement was nearly 8 years later!

5. Claims that he will fight Wills in a winner takes all bout for a grand total of $300,000.
Huh? Now he's willing to fight Wills after Tunney no later than January 1927 for as little as nothing and as much as $300,000? Did he really think Wills would agree to that and put up $150,000 and risk taking back nothing? Was this a stalling tactic? We now move from 1919 to January 1927?


You have to admit, this all seems very, very fishy! This shlt was worse than the Pacquiao-Mayweather saga. I think everyone can at least agree with that!


ps. Also, seems very "snarky" for Dempsey to say if Wills really wants to fight, he would cover that amount. I don't think anyone has ever doubted that Wills wanted this fight.

[HOUDINI563]

Dempsey announced that he would draw the color line which was the American culture tradition of all American hwt champions. It was EXPECTED that the hwt champion was do their part in never letting a black have the opportunity to be called the man who was every mans physical superior. Dempsey quickly took this back announcing he was face any man of any color. In 1921 Jack Johnson shook the boxing world by announcing he would pursue a title shot vs Dempsey. Dempseys comment that he drew the color line was to address specifically Johnsons announcement. No one who controlled boxing wanted Johnson around because of the disruption he caused as champion. Dempsey once the it was clearly understood Johnson was not getting a title shot once again renounce the color line. Regarding the many proposed bouts vs Wills it is well understood that those who controlled boxing did not want the bout to take place and several times promoters never came up with signing payments. As follows:

"The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn't enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case."

[travestyny]

Dempsey announced that he would draw the color line which was the American culture tradition of all American hwt champions. It was EXPECTED that the hwt champion was do their part in never letting a black have the opportunity to be called the man who was every mans physical superior. Dempsey quickly took this back announcing he was face any man of any color. In 1921 Jack Johnson shook the boxing world by announcing he would pursue a title shot vs Dempsey. Dempseys comment that he drew the color line was to address specifically Johnsons announcement. No one who controlled boxing wanted Johnson around because of the disruption he caused as champion. Dempsey once the it was clearly understood Johnson was not getting a title shot once again renounce the color line. Regarding the many proposed bouts vs Wills it is well understood that those who controlled boxing did not want the bout to take place and several times promoters never came up with signing payments. As follows:

"The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn't enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case."

You have to follow.

1. The quotation about him drawing the color line was provided in this thread. It clearly states that he wouldn't fight ANY black fighter. It wasn't only about Johnson. He even mentioned Wills specifically and said that because he declared the color-line, he is free to say Wills would beat just about anyone.

Proof:

DEMPSEY WILL NEVER FIGHT NEGRO Champion Declares He Has Drawn Color Line; Will Not Wed,
OMAHA, Neb., July B.—Jack Dempsey, world’s heavyweight champion pugilist, who passed through here today on his way to Salt Lake City, In a statement to newspaper men denied that he is willing to fight Jack Johnson, “or any other negro fighter.’’ “I will never fight a colored man,’’ Dempsey said. “There is nothing to this talk of me meeting Jack Johnson. 1 am confident the , public does not want this fight, and while 1 will prove myself to a large extent according to the public wishes, I can’t see my way clear to fight Johnson or any other colored man.’’ Although his train stopped here only 10 minutes, Dempsey said “more things” than he has since the fight with Carpentier at Jersey City, according to the sport writers who interviewed him. “How about those two mysterious men in your corner with a towel. Jack?" inquired a fan. “Never knew a thing about it until some one showed me a newspaper with the story in it,” the champion replied. Concerning the story that he was a married man, Dempsey said; "Somebody was groggy when they sent out that story.about me going to get married. I can't make more than enough to support myself.” Continuing about the prospects for his next bout, Dempsey went on: “I w r ill meet any one that Kearns picks for me. Gibbons, I understand, is a good man. although I never have seen him work. As I have drawn the color line, I am free to say that I think Harry Wills is a great fighter, one who will whip the very best of them. You know as much about Johnson as I do. As for Willard—l'll fight him any time—and lick him, too.”

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SU19210709.2.95

2. Dempsey didn't "win" the case. He just wasn't found to be liable for hefty amounts of money. He was found to have broken the contract an injunction was carried out to stop him from facing Tunney. He clearly signed a legit contract which stated specifically when the money was to be paid, and he broke the contract before it was to be paid. There really is no way around this.

Proof:

September 13, 1926, a decree was entered in the superior court of Marion county, finding that the contract was a valid and subsisting contract between the parties, and that the complainant had expended large sums of money in carrying out the terms of the agreement, and entering a decree that Dempsey be perpetually restrained and enjoined from in any way, wise, or manner, training or preparing for or participating in any contracts or engagements in furtherance of any boxing match, prize fight or any exhibition of like nature, and particularly from engaging or entering into any boxing match with one Gene Tunney, or with any person other than the one designated by plaintiff.

It is insisted among other things that the costs incurred by the plaintiff in procuring the injunctional order in Marion county, Indiana, were properly chargeable against Dempsey for his breach of contract and recoverable in this proceeding. Under the evidence in the record in this proceeding there appears to have been a valid subsisting agreement between the plaintiff and Dempsey, in which Dempsey was to perform according to the terms of the agreement and which he refused to do, and the plaintiff, as a matter of law, was entitled at least to nominal damages. For this reason, if for no other, judgment should have been for the plaintiff.

3. The more we look into this, the more it's proven that Dempsey was a big liar. I'm sorry, but the proof is there.

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey announced that he would draw the color line which was the American culture tradition of all American hwt champions. It was EXPECTED that the hwt champion was do their part in never letting a black have the opportunity to be called the man who was every mans physical superior. Dempsey quickly took this back announcing he was face any man of any color. In 1921 Jack Johnson shook the boxing world by announcing he would pursue a title shot vs Dempsey. Dempseys comment that he drew the color line was to address specifically Johnsons announcement. No one who controlled boxing wanted Johnson around because of the disruption he caused as champion. Dempsey once the it was clearly understood Johnson was not getting a title shot once again renounce the color line. Regarding the many proposed bouts vs Wills it is well understood that those who controlled boxing did not want the bout to take place and several times promoters never came up with signing payments. As follows:

"The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn't enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case."

We have dispelled the myth that Dempsey was ducking Wills. I believe this is the fifth thread someone has argued this and each time he comes up short. No one has yet to disclaim that Johnson himself drew the color line and avoided Langford, McVea, Jeannette, and Wills while HW champion.

In reference to the thread topic, Johnson gets a pass for drawing the color line and ducking black fighters while champion (after they gained more experience and weren't overmatched) but Dempsey is held to a higher standard by some who wish to discredit him.

Meanwhile Marciano gets called overrated and the more I watch him the more impressed I am with what he accomplished. The more I watch and dissect Johnson, the less impressed I am.