Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[HOUDINI563]

Again the history is well known and understood. Understood for 80 years. Pick a topic that still has some level of historical merit. This one does not.

[HOUDINI563]

No one disputes Louis punching power. Here the only man to fight both clearly picks Dempsey as the harder puncher. Sharkey, former worlds champion, States "he never thought anyone could hit that hard" regarding Dempseys punching power. Yes harder than Joe Louis.

[travestyny]

Again the history is well known and understood. Understood for 80 years. Pick a topic that still has some level of historical merit. This one does not.

Can you read....?


We were mostly discussing Joe Jeannette, not Wills.


And no it is not well understood because there is still debate today about whether Dempsey really wanted that fight with Wills. Pretty sure I just read that somewhere.


Here it is:

Futile attempt at a heavyweight title match
Disagreement exists among boxing historians as to whether Dempsey avoided Wills, though Dempsey claimed he was willing to fight him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Wills

If you don't like it...take it up with one of those historians.

[travestyny]

No one disputes Louis punching power. Here the only man to fight both clearly picks Dempsey as the harder puncher. Sharkey, former worlds champion, States "he never thought anyone could hit that hard" regarding Dempseys punching power. Yes harder than Joe Louis.

And this has what to do with the topic?

I just posted a dude saying Langford hit harder than Dempsey. And....so the fvkck what????

Clearly you avoided this:

One opponent, “Fireman” Jim Flynn, said of Langford’s punching power: “I fought most of the heavyweights, including [Jack] Dempsey and [Jack] Johnson, but Sam could strength a guy colder than any of them. When Langford hit me it felt like someone slugged me with a baseball bat.”

Do you think that's why Dempsey said he was scared of Langford?

[HOUDINI563]

Wikipedia? Really? It's known history. Not really debatable unless you don't know the facts. You either don't know the facts or are purposely distorting the facts. Which is it? For shame on you for what you are trying to do here. Extremely intellectually dishonest.

[HOUDINI563]

I'd rate Jack Sharkeys opinion over Jim Flynn anyday. Worlds hwt champion vs a well beaten, well knocked out contender.

[travestyny]

Wikipedia? Really? It's known history. Not really debatable unless you don't know the facts. You either don't know the facts or are purposely distorting the facts. Which is it? For shame on you for what you are trying to do here. Extremely intellectually dishonest.

The fact is that no one can know except Dempsey. I've stated before that he said he wanted the fight, so leave it at that. What's the problem?

I've also said this was mostly about Jeannette. You are still ranting about Wills. I've engaged you about it, and you ignore everything I bring up, so what's the point? I said Dempsey claims he wanted it and that I'm willing to leave it at that.

You're obviously clearly hurt about something or other. Is it about the hand-wrap thread? I invited you to come back and join in after your big blunder, but you never showed up. What happened?

[travestyny]

I'd rate Jack Sharkeys opinion over Jim Flynn anyday. Worlds hwt champion vs a well beaten, well knocked out contender.

Thanks. That proves my point about you. Exposed!


Just keep going with whatever fits your agenda, bro.

[Dempsey-Louis]

When asked who would win between Dempsey and Wills the great Sam Langford stated. "My money would be on the champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen."

This is a good example of what is wrong IMO with all these quotes. I suspect Langford was hoping for a shot at Dempsey (and the best payday of his career) so of course he would say that, and I am obviously a Dempsey fan (and almost always disagree with T-NY on Dempsey) - I wouldn't trust Langford's words just as I didn't trust De Forest's, even when he comes down on Dempsey's side.

I know I sound like a broken record with this theme but every quote has be be questioned for its truthfulness; every speaker has his own agenda.

But it is great hearing all these quotes, so keep them coming.

[HOUDINI563]

Here's what was written in the book, "Jack Dempsey, The Manassa Mauler" by Randy Roberts.

Promotion of a title fight was further complicated by the complexion of the heavyweight division. The list of good heavyweights was a trifle thin in 1922. In fact, the only heavyweight worthy of consideration was Harry Wills. Ably managed by Paddy Mullins, Wills had achieved his number one ranking by virtue of a threeround knockout victory over Fred Fulton in July of 1920. In 1921 Wills had been active. Among other boxers, he defeated Bill Tate three times, twice by knockout, and battered to the canvas both Jeff Clark and Gunboat Smith, two ring veterans who had long since passed their prime. His size was as impressive as his record; at six feet, four inches, and 220 pounds, he was a well-proportioned athlete who could box as well as punch. To the casual observer, a bout between Wills and Dempsey appeared to have all the elements of a classic match. However, Wills's fate was hampered by two shadows. First, he was black, and, although in the 1920s blacks were permitted to fight for the title in lower divisions, they were not allowed to compete for the heavyweight crown. This situation was an heirloom of Wills's second shadow: Jack Johnson. Every time a Wills-Dempsey bout was proposed, the image of the gold-toothed, smiling former champion surfaced in the minds of race-conscious promoters. All black heavyweights between 1908 and the mid-1930s were handicapped by the stigma of Jack Johnson. It became so difficult for a black to get a match with a good white fighter that the leading black boxers were forced to fight each other numerous times. For example, Sam Langford, who after Johnson was perhaps the best black heavyweight during the first quarter of the twentieth century, fought Sam McVey fifteen times, Joe Jeannette fourteen times, Jim Barry twelve times, Jeff Clark eleven times, and Harry Wills twenty-three times. Similarly, Wills had an extended series of bouts with Jeannette, McVey, Clark, John Lestor Johnson, Jack Thompson, and Bill Tate. By the 1920s it became increasingly difficult to ignore black heavyweights. To be sure, the three best blacks of the Johnson era-Langford, McVey, and Jeanette-were too old for serious consideration, but Wills could not be circumvented without notice. The new organization of the sport made Wills's plight more visible. In February of 1922 Nat Fleischer, a boxing reporter, started publication of the Ring. In the foreward to the first issue he wrote, "The Ring will stand by the public, by the boxers, by those who give honestly their share to the great and glorious game." In the months that followed, the Ring established itself as the leading boxing periodical, replacing the Police Gazette. Fleischer made a serious effort to accumulate accurate records, publish lists of leading contenders, and insure that the sport imbibed *******ly the virtues of honesty and integrity that he preached. "Nat Fleischer and The Ring made the sport respectable," his son-in-law, Nat Loubet, claimed. "Before Nat any manager could say his boy was 48 and 0 with 42 knockouts. Nat checked the records; he made damn sure the manager was on the up and Up."
No sooner had Fleischer established his magazine than he started a crusade to eliminate the color line in the heavyweight division. Acting as editor, business manager, circulation manager, and general handyman of the Ring, Fleischer risked financial suicide by pleading Wills's case in the third issue he published. Speaking for the magazine, Francis Albertine wrote that "it seems only just that prejudices be eliminated in every clean sport, and that if boxing is to hold its place in the field of athletic activities, discrimination must not be countenanced." Albertine continued by asserting that Wills, unlike Johnson, "is a clean athlete, a splendid sportsman, a boxer of high ideals who has proved himself a credit to the game and to his race." Several months later George B. Underwood, another writer for the Ring, resumed the argument: "It would not be stretching the truth to say that Wills is running Booker T. Washington a good second in the Africo-American community.