Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[Dempsey-Louis]

I got a notification from you about your previous post, but I don't see you quoting me or mentioning me in your post. I think that has happened a few times with you. Don't know how you are doing that! lol

So I'm not sure if this one also was for me (I didn't get a notification about it). Are you asking me about an article?

No that one was meant for Houdini.

[travestyny]

I have to disagree with you regarding Dempsey calling his own shots. It is foolish for any fighter to give away a percentage of himself and then not take the advise. I believe the same premise holds for the Joe Jeanette situation. You take your manager's advise.

It is better to argue that Kearns should have done the end run around Rickard, not Demspey, and as I posted above Kearns did try to make a Wills-Demspey fight in Montreal but couldn't get enough solid backing.

I seriously doubt that Kearns wanted this fight, bro. From what I've been reading, Kearns was as against it as Rickard. Remember, Kearns didn't even want Dempsey to fight Joe Jeannette, but would have allowed him to fight any other White contender, so it seemed. This is the reason I believe that this was a whole lot of smoke. There were three people involved here. Dempsey may have wanted the fight more than Rickard and Kearns, but I'm just not sure how much he wanted it.

[travestyny]

No that one was meant for Houdini.

Ah, gotcha. Didn't know you can do the "silent mention" on here. No idea how you're doing it, but cool.


By the way, I guess I forgot to give the proof that Houdini was lying.

Langfords quote was in 1925. He was not in any way in line for a title shot in 1925.

Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922,*Atlanta Constitution*"Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

Funny that he's the same guy that said this:

You either don't know the facts or are purposely distorting the facts. Which is it? For shame on you for what you are trying to do here. Extremely intellectually dishonest.

[travestyny]

Dempsey demanded and was offered one million dollars to fight Wills. How anyone would think he would turn down a milion dollars back then (about $25M in today's currency) to fight a guy who was big and slow is beyond reason. Dempsey insisted on a $300K advance to sign the contract. Wills was getting $50K for the fight. The $300K was never paid to Demosey. They tried appeasing him with a $25K check that actually bounced. Fight was called off.

Very true Ghost.

I wonder what offer you are referring to.

Bill Brady (promoter for Corbett and Jeffries) tried to steal Dempsey from Rickard by offering Dempsey a $200,000 guarantee, plus a percentage (to fight Wills) in January of '22, He claimed he would put 50K forfeit money in escrow. Doc Kearns claimed that Brady never came across with the promised money and walked away from the offer.

I suspect Kearns was just screwing with Rickard and never took Brady seriously.

Just found new information that might show that Dempsey was lying. Will update you guys shortly!

[travestyny]

Ok, I didn't want to do this. I kept telling you guys that I wasn't talking about the Dempsey/Wills situation. I said that I didn't even want to look into it much because I'll just take Dempsey's word for it. But you guys kept pushing and pushing this issue so I decided to look into this . Check this out:

Appellate Court of Illinois, Chicago, First District.·265 Ill. App. 542 (Ill. App. Ct. 1932)
CHICAGO COLISEUM CLUB V. DEMPSEY

Background:


Chicago Coliseum Club, a corporation, as plaintiff, brought its action against William Harrison Dempsey, known as Jack Dempsey, to recover damages for breach of a written contract executed March 13, 1926, but bearing date of March 6 of that year.

Under the terms of the written agreement, the plaintiff was to promote a public boxing exhibition in Chicago, or some suitable place to be selected by the promoter, and had engaged the services of one Harry Wills, another well known boxer and pugilist, to engage in a boxing match with the defendant Dempsey for the championship of the world. Under the terms of the contract between the plaintiff and Dempsey and the plaintiff and Wills, the contest was to be held during the month of September, 1926.

Dempsey's Financial Agreement: The Plaintiff agreed to...

• Pay Dempsey an initial amount of $10 for consideration, receipt of which was acknowledged
• pay to Dempsey the sum of $300,000 on the 5th day of August 1926
• Pay Dempsey $500,000 in cash at least 10 days before the date fixed for the contest
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net profits over and above the sum of $2,000,000 in the event the gate receipts should exceed that amount
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net revenue derived from moving picture concessions or royalties received by the plaintiff

Dempsey Also:

• agreed to have his life and health insured in favor of the plaintiff in a manner and at a place to be designated by the plaintiff.
• agreed not to engage in any boxing match after the date of the agreement and prior to the date on which the contest was to be held.

The Facts:

July 10, 1926, plaintiff wired Dempsey at Colorado Springs, Colorado, stating that representatives of life and accident insurance companies would call on him for the purpose of examining him for insurance in favor of the Chicago Coliseum Club, in accordance with the terms of his contract, and also requesting the defendant to begin training for the contest not later than August 1, 1926. In answer to this communication plaintiff received a telegram from Dempsey, as follows:

"BM Colorado Springs Colo July 10th 1926

B. E. Clements
President Chicago Coliseum Club Chgo:

Entirely too busy training for my coming Tunney match to waste time on insurance representatives. Stop as you have no contract. Suggest you stop kidding yourself and me also.

Jack Dempsey."

• on August 3, 1926, plaintiff, as complainant, filed a bill in the superior court of Marion county, Indiana, asking to have Dempsey restrained and enjoined from engaging in the contest with Tunney, which complainant was informed and believed was to be held on the 16th day of September, and which contest would be in violation of the terms of the agreement entered into between the plaintiff and defendant at Los Angeles, March 13, 1926.

• September 13, 1926, a decree was entered in the superior court of Marion county, finding that the contract was a valid and subsisting contract between the parties, and that the complainant had expended large sums of money in carrying out the terms of the agreement
  
• Also, a decree was entered that Dempsey be perpetually restrained and enjoined from in any way, wise, or manner, training or preparing for or participating in any contracts or engagements in furtherance of any boxing match, prize fight or any exhibition of like nature, and particularly from engaging or entering into any boxing match with one Gene Tunney, or with any person other than the one designated by plaintiff.

We are unable to conceive upon what theory the defendant could contend that there was no contract, as it appears to be admitted in the proceeding here and bears his signature and the amounts involved are sufficiently large to have created a rather lasting impression on the mind of anyone signing such an agreement

The court found that Dempsey could only be on the hook for damages that came between the time of the signing of the contract and the time of the breach of the contract. So the plaintiff was not awarded for any amount they could have gained (because they couldn't prove how much money the fight would bring in), couldn't recoup the $50,000 they gave to Wills (at least not in this case), and couldn't get the amount of money they spent to get the injunction to stop Dempsey from fighting Tunney.

The Court did find that there were some incidental damages, such as secretaries' salaries and consultation with an architect to build the ring ($300).


So the point is, Dempsey was to get the money on August 5th! He breached the contract on July 10th!!! The complaint by the promoter was filed August 3rd!!!!

This is proof that Dempsey cannot use the excuse that money was not received. Even the court agreed that this contract was valid, though they didn't award much damages.

DEMPSEY DID INDEED DUCK THE BLACK PANTHER, HARRY WILLS!!!
HE SIGNED THE CONTRACT AND THEN BAILED! IT'S ALL FILED IN COURT!

LINKS
https://casetext.com/case/chicago-co...club-v-dempsey

http://www.invispress.com/law/contracts/chicago.html

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Ok, I didn't want to do this. I kept telling you guys that I wasn't talking about the Dempsey/Wills situation. I said that I didn't even want to look into it much because I'll just take Dempsey's word for it. But you guys kept pushing and pushing this issue so I decided to look into this . Check this out:

Appellate Court of Illinois, Chicago, First District.·265 Ill. App. 542 (Ill. App. Ct. 1932)
CHICAGO COLISEUM CLUB V. DEMPSEY

Background:


Chicago Coliseum Club, a corporation, as plaintiff, brought its action against William Harrison Dempsey, known as Jack Dempsey, to recover damages for breach of a written contract executed March 13, 1926, but bearing date of March 6 of that year.

Under the terms of the written agreement, the plaintiff was to promote a public boxing exhibition in Chicago, or some suitable place to be selected by the promoter, and had engaged the services of one Harry Wills, another well known boxer and pugilist, to engage in a boxing match with the defendant Dempsey for the championship of the world. Under the terms of the contract between the plaintiff and Dempsey and the plaintiff and Wills, the contest was to be held during the month of September, 1926.

Dempsey's Financial Agreement: The Plaintiff agreed to...

• Pay Dempsey an initial amount of $10 for consideration, receipt of which was acknowledged
• pay to Dempsey the sum of $300,000 on the 5th day of August 1926
• Pay Dempsey $500,000 in cash at least 10 days before the date fixed for the contest
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net profits over and above the sum of $2,000,000 in the event the gate receipts should exceed that amount
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net revenue derived from moving picture concessions or royalties received by the plaintiff

Dempsey Also:

• agreed to have his life and health insured in favor of the plaintiff in a manner and at a place to be designated by the plaintiff.
• agreed not to engage in any boxing match after the date of the agreement and prior to the date on which the contest was to be held.

The Facts:

July 10, 1926, plaintiff wired Dempsey at Colorado Springs, Colorado, stating that representatives of life and accident insurance companies would call on him for the purpose of examining him for insurance in favor of the Chicago Coliseum Club, in accordance with the terms of his contract, and also requesting the defendant to begin training for the contest not later than August 1, 1926. In answer to this communication plaintiff received a telegram from Dempsey, as follows:

"BM Colorado Springs Colo July 10th 1926

B. E. Clements
President Chicago Coliseum Club Chgo:

Entirely too busy training for my coming Tunney match to waste time on insurance representatives. Stop as you have no contract. Suggest you stop kidding yourself and me also.

Jack Dempsey."

• on August 3, 1926, plaintiff, as complainant, filed a bill in the superior court of Marion county, Indiana, asking to have Dempsey restrained and enjoined from engaging in the contest with Tunney, which complainant was informed and believed was to be held on the 16th day of September, and which contest would be in violation of the terms of the agreement entered into between the plaintiff and defendant at Los Angeles, March 13, 1926.

• September 13, 1926, a decree was entered in the superior court of Marion county, finding that the contract was a valid and subsisting contract between the parties, and that the complainant had expended large sums of money in carrying out the terms of the agreement
  
• Also, a decree was entered that Dempsey be perpetually restrained and enjoined from in any way, wise, or manner, training or preparing for or participating in any contracts or engagements in furtherance of any boxing match, prize fight or any exhibition of like nature, and particularly from engaging or entering into any boxing match with one Gene Tunney, or with any person other than the one designated by plaintiff.

The court found that Dempsey could only be on the hook for damages that came between the time of the signing of the contract and the time of the breach of the contract. So the plaintiff was not awarded for any amount they could have gained (because they couldn't prove how much money the fight would bring in), couldn't recoup the $50,000 they gave to Wills (at least not in this case), and couldn't get the amount of money they spent to get the injunction to stop Dempsey from fighting Tunney.

The Court did find that there were some incidental damages, such as secretaries' salaries and consultation with an architect to build the ring ($300).


So the point is, Dempsey was to get the money on August 5th! He breached the contract on July 10th!!! The complaint by the promoter was filed August 3rd!!!!

This is proof that Dempsey cannot use the excuse that money was not received. Even the court agreed that this contract was valid, though they didn't award much damages.

DEMPSEY DID INDEED DUCK THE BLACK PANTHER, HARRY WILLS!!!
HE SIGNED THE CONTRACT AND THEN BAILED! IT'S ALL FILED IN COURT!

LINKS
https://casetext.com/case/chicago-co...club-v-dempsey

http://www.invispress.com/law/contracts/chicago.html

Uh no. You're missing some stuff.

There is no evidence in the record showing that the $50,000 was deposited nor that it has ever been paid, nor is there any evidence in the record showing the financial standing of the Chicago Coliseum Club, a corporation, plaintiff in this suit

They couldn't prove they could pay either fighter.

Rickard had just got back from Springfield, Illinois, where he'd gone to talk to the governor. Afraid Tunney wouldn't draw, he halfheartedly approached the governor about Wills because of the fuss his people were making in the courts. Governor Small wouldn't stand for a Dempsey-Wills fight and told Tex so in no uncertain terms: He was convinced there'd be a race riot before the first round was over because of the large black population in Chicago.

"I would have fought Wills," Dempsey told the New York Post in 1953, "but nobody would promote it. When Wills challenged, Tex Rickard would have nothing to do with the fight. He said he had instructions from Washington not to promote a mixed[-race] bout for the heavyweight title."

That quote is from Dempsey's autobiography. Even if they were able to get the money and everything it is still unclear whether or not the fight could still have taken place I mean the governor of Illinois AND the federal government were against it.

The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me. Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case."

Again, here Dempsey found out for himself that they didn't have even a measly 25 grand to pay him. Yet you think they would have been able to pull 2 million out of thin air.

[Dempsey-Louis]

I seriously doubt that Kearns wanted this fight, bro. From what I've been reading, Kearns was as against it as Rickard. Remember, Kearns didn't even want Dempsey to fight Joe Jeannette, but would have allowed him to fight any other White contender, so it seemed. This is the reason I believe that this was a whole lot of smoke. There were three people involved here. Dempsey may have wanted the fight more than Rickard and Kearns, but I'm just not sure how much he wanted it.

Absolutely, Kearns didn't want the fight either. What I said was that the decision was up to Kearns to make, not Dempsey. Kearns's decision was 'no fight.' It is wrong to expect Dempsey to manage his own career.

I am of the mind that Kearns didn't want the fight because Wills was now NY based and that meant any Dempsey-Wills fight would be in NY and would be a Rickard promotion.

Yes I believe the color issue was all important with Rickard; I also believe that the jury is still out on Kearns, we can't assess Kearns on color because his war with, and fear of Rickard, trumped everything else he did.

I can't seem to get anyone to recognize my argument regarding Kearns and Rickard. Most everyone's posts are under the assumption that Rickard and Kearns were working in tangent, they were not, they were deliberately undermining each other every step of the way. They put on a cooperative face for the public, but when Kearns finally got out on his own and blew it big time in Shelby, Rickard made his move and stole Dempsey.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Ok, I didn't want to do this. I kept telling you guys that I wasn't talking about the Dempsey/Wills situation. I said that I didn't even want to look into it much because I'll just take Dempsey's word for it. But you guys kept pushing and pushing this issue so I decided to look into this . Check this out:

Appellate Court of Illinois, Chicago, First District.·265 Ill. App. 542 (Ill. App. Ct. 1932)
CHICAGO COLISEUM CLUB V. DEMPSEY

Background:


Chicago Coliseum Club, a corporation, as plaintiff, brought its action against William Harrison Dempsey, known as Jack Dempsey, to recover damages for breach of a written contract executed March 13, 1926, but bearing date of March 6 of that year.

Under the terms of the written agreement, the plaintiff was to promote a public boxing exhibition in Chicago, or some suitable place to be selected by the promoter, and had engaged the services of one Harry Wills, another well known boxer and pugilist, to engage in a boxing match with the defendant Dempsey for the championship of the world. Under the terms of the contract between the plaintiff and Dempsey and the plaintiff and Wills, the contest was to be held during the month of September, 1926.

Dempsey's Financial Agreement: The Plaintiff agreed to...

• Pay Dempsey an initial amount of $10 for consideration, receipt of which was acknowledged
• pay to Dempsey the sum of $300,000 on the 5th day of August 1926
• Pay Dempsey $500,000 in cash at least 10 days before the date fixed for the contest
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net profits over and above the sum of $2,000,000 in the event the gate receipts should exceed that amount
• Pay Dempsey 50 per cent of the net revenue derived from moving picture concessions or royalties received by the plaintiff

Dempsey Also:

• agreed to have his life and health insured in favor of the plaintiff in a manner and at a place to be designated by the plaintiff.
• agreed not to engage in any boxing match after the date of the agreement and prior to the date on which the contest was to be held.

The Facts:

July 10, 1926, plaintiff wired Dempsey at Colorado Springs, Colorado, stating that representatives of life and accident insurance companies would call on him for the purpose of examining him for insurance in favor of the Chicago Coliseum Club, in accordance with the terms of his contract, and also requesting the defendant to begin training for the contest not later than August 1, 1926. In answer to this communication plaintiff received a telegram from Dempsey, as follows:

"BM Colorado Springs Colo July 10th 1926

B. E. Clements
President Chicago Coliseum Club Chgo:

Entirely too busy training for my coming Tunney match to waste time on insurance representatives. Stop as you have no contract. Suggest you stop kidding yourself and me also.

Jack Dempsey."

• on August 3, 1926, plaintiff, as complainant, filed a bill in the superior court of Marion county, Indiana, asking to have Dempsey restrained and enjoined from engaging in the contest with Tunney, which complainant was informed and believed was to be held on the 16th day of September, and which contest would be in violation of the terms of the agreement entered into between the plaintiff and defendant at Los Angeles, March 13, 1926.

• September 13, 1926, a decree was entered in the superior court of Marion county, finding that the contract was a valid and subsisting contract between the parties, and that the complainant had expended large sums of money in carrying out the terms of the agreement
  
• Also, a decree was entered that Dempsey be perpetually restrained and enjoined from in any way, wise, or manner, training or preparing for or participating in any contracts or engagements in furtherance of any boxing match, prize fight or any exhibition of like nature, and particularly from engaging or entering into any boxing match with one Gene Tunney, or with any person other than the one designated by plaintiff.

The court found that Dempsey could only be on the hook for damages that came between the time of the signing of the contract and the time of the breach of the contract. So the plaintiff was not awarded for any amount they could have gained (because they couldn't prove how much money the fight would bring in), couldn't recoup the $50,000 they gave to Wills (at least not in this case), and couldn't get the amount of money they spent to get the injunction to stop Dempsey from fighting Tunney.

The Court did find that there were some incidental damages, such as secretaries' salaries and consultation with an architect to build the ring ($300).


So the point is, Dempsey was to get the money on August 5th! He breached the contract on July 10th!!! The complaint by the promoter was filed August 3rd!!!!

This is proof that Dempsey cannot use the excuse that money was not received. Even the court agreed that this contract was valid, though they didn't award much damages.

DEMPSEY DID INDEED DUCK THE BLACK PANTHER, HARRY WILLS!!!
HE SIGNED THE CONTRACT AND THEN BAILED! IT'S ALL FILED IN COURT!

LINKS
https://casetext.com/case/chicago-co...club-v-dempsey

http://www.invispress.com/law/contracts/chicago.html

OK the guy sued Dempsey because Dempsey went with Rickard (and Tunney) and not with him and Wills, why does that mean he is ducking?

He had the Tunney fight for $750, 000 guarantee, plus film rights with Rickard, a promoter he knew could deliver.

Why should he take a Chicago fight with a lesser promoter, in a 'mixed bout' that no one can be sure will turn out OK, just to please your 100 year old sense of justice?

120,000 showed up in Phily in '26 so why would Dempsey want to take the Chicago fight, a mixed bout, with a lesser promoter?

If seems to me if Dempsey doesn't do exactly what suits your argument, you immediately conclude he was 'ducking' for racial reasons. Try backing up a bit, and looking at it from Dempsey's POV before you pass judgement.

Oh, and of course the suit was frivolous and went no where; it is akin to the manner in which Donald Trump sues people, not for justice, but instead just to harass.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Oh and I want to add that Rickard had already shown that he could get around the Sims (interstate prohibition) Act and get the film viewed anyway. He pulled this off with both the Carpentier and Firpo fights.

It is very unlikely the other promoter could have pulled that off, especially with a 'mixed bout.' There was more money that could be made with the fight film, that would have been lost in a Dempsey-Wills fight.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Uh no. You're missing some stuff.



They couldn't prove they could pay either fighter.





That quote is from Dempsey's autobiography. Even if they were able to get the money and everything it is still unclear whether or not the fight could still have taken place I mean the governor of Illinois AND the federal government were against it.



Again, here Dempsey found out for himself that they didn't have even a measly 25 grand to pay him. Yet you think they would have been able to pull 2 million out of thin air.

OK, this sounds like the offer GhostofDempsey was referring to, a million dollar offer and the guy couldn't come up with the lousy 25K.