Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

All due respect, I think you're making this too much about race. It's very simple. If a fighter shows up to find one guy and another guy is thrown into his place, it's very su****ious. Tommy Morrison fought Tim Tomashek when his opponent fell through, true enough. However, Tim Tomashek was not a highly touted heavyweight either. he was munching on a hot dog in the audience and possibly drinking a beer. Haha. I can't blame Dempsey for pulling out when a guy just shows up like that. I honestly don't believe any other heavyweight in history would have taken such a fight.

Bro, I'm not making it about race. If anything, DEMPSEY made it about race. Look at the quotation:

“I'll fight any white man they put on,” he growled huskily, “but I didn't agree to fight a colored boy.”

http://static.boxrec.com/d/df/IBRO_O...sletter_01.pdf

He said that, not me! I'm wondering if this is going to be yet another case of people looking into his words and interpreting them based on what fits their agenda, or just accepting them for face value.

[The Old LefHook]

There was a degree of manipulation Dempsey was willing to abide, but no more. Surprising him with a black 'un to fight was a little too much. A pink 'un could use about any excuse in those days and it was going to pass muster with other pink 'uns. To break the color line might have invited unwanted controversy into a rising pink career. Any excuse would work, remember. Is there a difference between motive and excuse here? Dempsey never met the unarmed man who made him scamper for cover. There was a lot more to fear from white (pink) fanatics and white censorship than from a black boxing opponent. The KKK was at its height in the early 20th century. Dempsey probably did not want the pinks against him, because there were many crazy ones who would shoot you. See, any excuse works.

You can't let dirty guys have every degree of freedom when it comes to manipulating and screwing you, though, is probably the bottom line. They can't do this to me! would have been anyone's indignant reaction. In that sense it hardly matters whose reaction it was. Asking Dempsey to spontaneously fight another opponent is one degree of conniving. Asking him to spontaneously fight a black 'un obviously brings a whole world of potential controversy along for the ride that is not there with a white opponent, or even a chocolate brown one, I durst conjecture.

That is one possible interpretation. You let people screw you when you can find an advantage in it for yourself. When you cannot find that advantage, you don't let 'em anymore.

The quotes are interesting. But I do not expect them to exclusively contain the truth, either, or to be the last words, but merely Exhibits A, B, C,... They have to be there as part of the debate.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Bro, I'm not making it about race. If anything, DEMPSEY made it about race. Look at the quotation:





He said that, not me! I'm wondering if this is going to be yet another case of people looking into his words and interpreting them based on what fits their agenda, or just accepting them for face value.

Well you're making derogatory comments about a legendary and respected champion. Forgive me if I don't automatically assume he was a coward and jump on the bandwagon.

He comments in the link about how bad boxing can be and how you're a bum before your champion, during and after. Clearly this is still true today. Just pick out any post on NSB.

And from the link, he's clearly instructed to box "Bond or nobody" by the author. So when was the last time a fighter went against his manager or promoter? When was the last time a boxer did NOT thank Bob Arum or Don King, etc. for giving him this great opportunity? They run the show, man. The fighters fight the fights and usually not much else until retirement usually.

As far as what he is claimed to have said, that could have been because of a threat of a riot. That was a common scare back then.

As an earlier poster stated, he did face a few black fighters, one of which he flattened. I don't think fighters are often intimidated by race. I'm sure there are exceptions, but what I really think is going on here, and I hate to say this, is this is clearly meant to portray Dempsey, a white heavyweight revered as one of the best in history, as only having gotten to where he was because he ducked black fighters, which would sort of be baiting, saying that in any era where black men are allowed to compete, no white man will ever come out on top. Obviously this is absurd. Real life just doesn't work that way or well, it's not that black and white. The Klitschko brothers of late, have proven this to completely false and of course, Marciano did as well, as they were all too willing to fight anybody of any race and did very well. Maybe I'm wrong about the intention here, but this seems like a way to continuously bring up a tired narrative about black supremacy in the sport.

[travestyny]

There was a degree of manipulation Dempsey was willing to abide, but no more. Surprising him with a black 'un to fight was a little too much. A pink 'un could use about any excuse in those days and it was going to pass muster with other pink 'uns. To break the color line might have invited unwanted controversy into a rising pink career. Any excuse would work, remember. Is there a difference between motive and excuse here? Dempsey never met the unarmed man who made him scamper for cover. There was a lot more to fear from white (pink) fanatics and white censorship than from a black boxing opponent. The KKK was at its height in the early 20th century. Dempsey probably did not want the pinks against him, because there were many crazy ones who would shoot you. See, any excuse works.

You can't let dirty guys have every degree of freedom when it comes to manipulating and screwing you, though, is probably the bottom line. They can't do this to me! would have been anyone's indignant reaction. In that sense it hardly matters whose reaction it was. Asking Dempsey to spontaneously fight another opponent is one degree of conniving. Asking him to spontaneously fight a black 'un obviously brings a whole world of potential controversy along for the ride that is not there with a white opponent, or even a chocolate brown one, I durst conjecture.

That is one possible interpretation. You let people screw you when you can find an advantage in it for yourself. When you cannot find that advantage, you don't let 'em anymore.

The quotes are interesting. But I do not expect them to exclusively contain the truth, either, or to be the last words, but merely Exhibits A, B, C,... They have to be there as part of the debate.

Very good points and much respect for this.


What I do find interesting, though, is the crowd's reaction. It was stated that they cheered Dempsey when he arrived. When he refused, they hurled insults at him. I would have thought that the crowd would have sided with him, but like Dempsey-Louis said, perhaps they just wanted to see a fight..? Also, I'd read somewhere or other that some accused him of being a traitor to his race for NOT taking the fight. Perhaps that was because it wasn't for the heavyweight championship, but only to be a 4 round exhibition.

For me, Kennedy pretty much gives the main reason that it didn't happen. Fear that one punch would derail Dempsey's title hopes. However, he had just lost previous to that and no one seemed to care, as it seemed most thought it was just a fluke loss. The only thing I can think is that had he lost to a black challenger, it would have meant more to people...?

In the end, the only thing that is sure is that he deemed walking away with his head down and being labeled a coward to be more favorable than taking the risk of losing to a black contender. The reasons might have been the ones you've mentioned or others. I guess only he knows for sure.

[travestyny]

Well you're making derogatory comments about a legendary and respected champion. Forgive me if I don't automatically assume he was a coward and jump on the bandwagon.

Why do you guys keep with this? I've not made any derogatory comments about him. If you mean me saying he ducked Jeanette. Yes, I did say that. But so far I've been accused of everything up to and including calling him a racist, which I never did. I simply provided the facts about this. I never said he was a coward. That's what the crowd said. I said that he ducked, for whatever reason that may have been.

He comments in the link about how bad boxing can be and how you're a bum before your champion, during and after. Clearly this is still true today. Just pick out any post on NSB.

And from the link, he's clearly instructed to box "Bond or nobody" by the author. So when was the last time a fighter went against his manager or promoter? When was the last time a boxer did NOT thank Bob Arum or Don King, etc. for giving him this great opportunity? They run the show, man. The fighters fight the fights and usually not much else until retirement usually.

That wasn't his manager or promoter who said box Bonds or no one. That was the writer.

But the point is that this was an exhibition for a war charity. The decision was his. If he chose to follow what Kearns desired, that's on him, but clearly he could have fought.

As far as what he is claimed to have said, that could have been because of a threat of a riot. That was a common scare back then.

Sure, it could have been. It could have been because he was scared to go in the opposite extreme. I'm not saying he was scared. I'm just saying that just as simply as you can give a reasoning that it was for this or that reason, so can anyone else.

As an earlier poster stated, he did face a few black fighters, one of which he flattened. I don't think fighters are often intimidated by race. I'm sure there are exceptions, but what I really think is going on here, and I hate to say this, is this is clearly meant to portray Dempsey, a white heavyweight revered as one of the best in history, as only having gotten to where he was because he ducked black fighters, which would sort of be baiting, saying that in any era where black men are allowed to compete, no white man will ever come out on top. Obviously this is absurd. Real life just doesn't work that way or well, it's not that black and white. The Klitschko brothers of late, have proven this to completely false and of course, Marciano did as well, as they were all too willing to fight anybody of any race and did very well. Maybe I'm wrong about the intention here, but this seems like a way to continuously bring up a tired narrative about black supremacy in the sport.

Lol. Whoaaaaa...slow your pony. No one has said or even insinuated any of that besides you!

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Finally! I found a statement from Jack Dempsey himself about the Joe Jeanette incident. Now you guys can all stop claiming I'm lying. You can also stop claiming that he didn't duck him. Here, he clearly draws a distinction between facing ANY WHITE MAN and a COLORED BOY!

And don't tell me it wasn't from Dempsey himself, because the article is credited as being by him, he gives direct quotations in it, and he states clearly that he remembers it!!!!




Hmmmmm.....I wonder what you think of that, Mr.MojoRisin'. Looks like a duck to me. He tucked tail according with Kearns wishes and walked away from a fight in which he stated clearly that he would have fought ANY white man.

Just underlining the distinction he used for man and boy because....well...honestly I thought it was out of character for him. But that's how people talked back then so I won't go overboard about that.

Still, I think I've proven my point.

What are you trying to argue here? That Dempsey was racist? It was clearly Kearns at the end of the day that prevented Dempsey from boxing Jeanette.

Just because Dempsey is credited as the author doesn't mean it was actually written by him. This could be phony af but I'll operate as if it's real for now.

If Dempsey was racist then Johnson was racist it's as simple as that. Johnson refused to fight black fighters, Dempsey refused to fight black fighters. The difference was if Dempsey lost to a black guy there could potentially have been race riots all across America and his hope of a title shot would have been kissed goodbye. Johnson could have fought the best black men yet he refused. He decided to fight battling jim johnson. Not Mcvea, not Jeanette, and not Langford.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Why do you guys keep with this? I've not made any derogatory comments about him. If you mean me saying he ducked Jeanette. Yes, I did say that. But so far I've been accused of everything up to and including calling him a racist, which I never did. I simply provided the facts about this. I never said he was a coward. That's what the crowd said. I said that he ducked, for whatever reason that may have been.



That wasn't his manager or promoter who said box Bonds or no one. That was the writer.

But the point is that this was an exhibition for a war charity. The decision was his. If he chose to follow what Kearns desired, that's on him, but clearly he could have fought.




Sure, it could have been. It could have been because he was scared to go in the opposite extreme. I'm not saying he was scared. I'm just saying that just as simply as you can give a reasoning that it was for this or that reason, so can anyone else.



Lol. Whoaaaaa...slow your pony. No one has said or even insinuated any of that besides you!

Well, you continuously invoke race in these posts. What other conclusion am I to draw?

And the pony don't slow down...

[travestyny]

What are you trying to argue here? That Dempsey was racist? It was clearly Kearns at the end of the day that prevented Dempsey from boxing Jeanette.

Why are you still going with this accusation that I've said Dempsey is a racist. I didn't. I simply provided the quotation. And you can take it how you want.

And clearly Dempsey could have fought Jeannette had he wanted to. It's pretty clear.

Just because Dempsey is credited as the author doesn't mean it was actually written by him. This could be phony af but I'll operate as if it's real for now.

If Dempsey was racist then Johnson was racist it's as simple as that. Johnson refused to fight black fighters, Dempsey refused to fight black fighters. The difference was if Dempsey lost to a black guy there could potentially have been race riots all across America and his hope of a title shot would have been kissed goodbye. Johnson could have fought the best black men yet he refused. He decided to fight battling jim johnson. Not Mcvea, not Jeanette, and not Langford.

You took all of that and you are still focused on this accusation of him being a racist, which I've never accused him of. I don't know why you keep going with that narrative when I corrected you on this a number of times. If anything, YOU have insinuated that he was racist.

1. You said he would have called blacks "negroes" if he were, and we have quotes of him doing so.

2. You said that drawing the color-line is racist, and we have a direct quotation about him drawing the color-line.

3. We also have a quotation of him referring to white fighters as "men" but referring to black fighters as "boys." Even I said I won't make a big deal about that, but if you want to keep going with the racist accusation, then tell me what do you think of that?



As forJohnson and Dempsey, once again. You are ignoring that Johnson fought the guys that Dempsey is accused of ducking, and yes, since before he was champion.

Johnson fought Joe Jeannette 7 times.

The last time they fought, Johnson was 28 years old and had 54 bouts and Jeannette was 27 with 21 bouts.

Johnson was seen to be about 20lbs heavier. Even in heavyweight boxing today, that doesn't matter, does it?

Johnson fought Sam McVey 3 times.

Boxrec reports, as you have stated, that McVey had more fights than were on his record. It specifically states that his record was 6-0-2 before their first recorded fight. That means Ghost of Dempsey is wrong about them fighting all when he had under 10 fights.

They fought for the colored heavyweight championship all 3 times I believe. Johnson had 27 fights and McVey must have had at least 18 fights the last time they fought.

Though McVey first fought him when he was 18 (Jack was 24) and last fought him when he was 19 (Jack was 26), McVey had around a 20lb weight advantage, which again doesn't really matter in heavyweight boxing.

Johnson fought Langford once and from what I can find, it was pretty much a massacre, or at least a schooling.

Johnson: 49 fights, 28 years old
Langford: 56 fights, 23 years old

Langford was much smaller. He was 156 and Jack was 185. Again, weight doesn't matter in heavyweight boxing, and Langford was considered a bit of a giant killer, wasn't he?


Dempsey-- swerved them all. For what reason, I'll let you decide. But he said he swerved Langford because he was scared, and we know about Jeannette by now.

[travestyny]

Well, you continuously invoke race in these posts. What other conclusion am I to draw?

And the pony don't slow down...

Dude.....again this is a baseless accusation. This came up because we are talking about these fighters' opposition. GhostofDempsey first brought Dempsey into the conversation, so how can we discuss him without discussing the color line and his various quotations where HE brings up race.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Why are you still going with this accusation that I've said Dempsey is a racist. I didn't. I simply provided the quotation. And you can take it how you want.

And clearly Dempsey could have fought Jeannette had he wanted to. It's pretty clear.



You took all of that and you are still focused on this accusation of him being a racist, which I've never accused him of. I don't know why you keep going with that narrative when I corrected you on this a number of times. If anything, YOU have insinuated that he was racist.

1. You said he would have called blacks "negroes" if he were, and we have quotes of him doing so.

2. You said that drawing the color-line is racist, and we have a direct quotation about him drawing the color-line.

3. We also have a quotation of him referring to white fighters as "men" but referring to black fighters as "boys." Even I said I won't make a big deal about that, but if you want to keep going with the racist accusation, then tell me what do you think of that?



As forJohnson and Dempsey, once again. You are ignoring that Johnson fought the guys that Dempsey is accused of ducking, and yes, since before he was champion.

Johnson fought Joe Jeannette 7 times.

The last time they fought, Johnson was 28 years old and had 54 bouts and Jeannette was 27 with 21 bouts.

Johnson was seen to be about 20lbs heavier. Even in heavyweight boxing today, that doesn't matter, does it?

Johnson fought Sam McVey 3 times.

Boxrec reports, as you have stated, that McVey had more fights than were on his record. It specifically states that his record was 6-0-2 before their first recorded fight. That means Ghost of Dempsey is wrong about them fighting all when he had under 10 fights.

They fought for the colored heavyweight championship. Johnson had 27 fights and McVey must have had at least 18 fights the last time they fought.

Though McVey first fought when him when he was 18 (Jack was 24) and last fought him when he was 19 (Jack was 26), McVey had around a 20lb weight advantage, which again doesn't really matter in heavyweight boxing.

Johnson fought Langford once and from what I can find, it was pretty much a massacre, or at least a schooling.

Johnson: 49 fights, 28 years old
Langford: 56 fights, 23 years old

Langford was much smaller. He was 156 and Jack was 185. Again, weight doesn't matter in heavyweight boxing, and Langford was considered a bit of a giant killer, wasn't he?


Dempsey-- swerved them all. For what reason, I'll let you decide. But he said he swerved Langford because he was scared, and we know about Jeannette by now.

There's so much wrong with your post where do I begin? I'll just list points of correction or disagreement.

1. Dempsey could not have fought Jeanette had he wanted to because he had a contract with Kearns. Do you think that just because it was 1918 there was no law and everyone could do whatever they want? A contract is binding whether it's 1918 or 2018.

2. Where did Dempsey refer to blacks as negros?
3. He didn't draw the color line, Kearns and Rickard did. Just because he supposedly said it doesn't mean it was his biding. He was doing what Kearns and Rickard said.

4. Jeanette was incredibly overmatched and didn't even put on gloves until he was 25 years old. The last time he fought Johnson his record was supposedly 10-10-1. That's a bum record but yet you give him a pass because he was black.

5. McVea was under 20 years old for all of their bouts and according to their last fight McVea was completely dominated and outclass. Does this sound like a formidable opponent to you? Because he wasn't.

6. Weight doesn't matter in heavyweight boxing? What the hell kind of logic is that? It does but that would be plausible if they were both over the light heavyweight limit. This wasn't two heavyweights, it was a middleweight and a heavyweight.

Dempsey didn't "swerve" Mcvea.