Monte Cox: Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You Were Told

[Anthony342]

Overall I do agree there was significant development from the Jack Johnson era, to the JoeLouis one. In technique and ring craft there is little comparison, especially with the big men.

However, it is worth remembering what a different sport this was back then. Try fighting like Mike Tyson or Muhammad Ali when a fight could go 30+ rounds. Ok you could win early, but you could also be worn down and tired out when you are barely into your 15th round.

Fighters back then were all about conserving energy. All that level changing, angle creating and explosive punching burns you out quick.

Is that why most of these cats can hardly make it to the end of 10 or 12 rounds these days but guys back then could more easily go 15? Or was it because they fought more often?

[HOUDINI563]

Johnsons skill set us completely misunderstood today. First For the most part Johnson was not holding his opponents in close. He was controlling them. If you watch say his bout with Flynn.....Flynn was free to punch Johnson and he tried. But by just tapping Flynn elbows Johnson was able to take the steam out of body blows. Punches brought up to the head were blocked. There are several left hooks by Flynn that if one watches them frame by frame you think there is no way he could miss but at the last second Johnson catches the punch and immediately brings Flynn arm back to the "control" position. It would have been very difficult for any fighter who relied on an inside game to beat prime Johnson.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Cherry Picker Johnson.

This is one thing I've wondered about. Even if a fighter proves to be excellent in the ring, if he usually picks opponents with the same style, that tells me he's very cautious in his approach ie he may be the best thing ever, but he's too cautious to ever show us or he may not be so confident in his ability to beat other styles, but sort of make him one dimensional in that he only beats one style.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes, and that style of boxing with a lot of clinching is rassling's next of kin, which is a close kin to street fighting.

Another feat Johnny performed in the ring against Jeff was pinning Jeff's arm behind his back. He did this because he was tired of hearing how strong Jeff was, so he advertised ahead of time that he would pin his arm like a boy's. The Galveston giant was strong enough to back up his boast. Watching the film, one sees the move clearly occur several times.

[The Old LefHook]

I am almost positive there is a well established tendency to romanticize and overestimate the black fighters of both Burley's and Langford's eras. Back when there had not been very many heavyweight champions yet was when Johnny became champion. He was larger than most champs of the era. He is not as big as the champs now.

Yet he has an inside game, one of the greatest inside games ever. This is precisely what most fighters today stand the least chance of dealing effectively with. No one else they are familiar with as opponents has a great inside game. No one. For that reason alone Johnny would be set to storm through the contemporary heavyweight scene successfully. This single skill set should effectively compensate for his size shortfall against some of the behemoths. His natural toughness and courage exceeds anything they are used to. Watch out, boys, he's a man eater. A great defensive fighter is still going to be just that in any era. He may get it done ugly, but I believe he will get it done most of the time. If he has the ring generalship to force a lot of clinching, he should beat most of the behemoths. Generally, it does not take a genius of generalship to put on a clinching show. Even Ruiz was able to do it effectively at top level. I feel confident Johnson would mangle Ruiz at his own game.

I like the chances of hardly any truly old time heavyweights. I only like the chances of Johnson, Dempsey and Tunney. Those three stood far above all their contemporaries and predecessors up until Louis.

There was the odd character like Langford who was an even better P4P fighter than any of the other three, but at 5'7" was not really big enough to fight in today's era as a heavyweight, irregardless of his ability to do it with impunity of old. No one convinces me Langford has a reasonable chance against Joshua or Wilder. I believe Langford would have had little to no chance against Willard. It is just the size differential. Langford was vastly more talented, but what could he do to Willard?

[BKM-]

A lot of boxing fans forget that there's a crucial reason for weightclasses while they romanticize the past. Johnson would have toyed with Langford.

[travestyny]

A lot of boxing fans forget that there's a crucial reason for weightclasses while they romanticize the past. Johnson would have toyed with Langford.

Johnson actually had a win against Langford.

[JAB5239]

A lot of boxing fans forget that there's a crucial reason for weightclasses while they romanticize the past. Johnson would have toyed with Langford.

If Johnson had thought that he would have put the title up against him. There were lucrative offers from promoters in both Australia and France I believe. And in Johnson's own words about Langford, :that little smoke has a chance against anyone".

[HOUDINI563]

The offers to fight the top black opponents were much lower than Johnsons asking price. Some of the proposed bouts Johnson agreed to fight but they then fell through.

[HOUDINI563]

The rise of the great black hwts....Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette were the real reason Jeffries retired. Of the four Johnson stood head and shoulders above in terms of boxing ability.