Quickly becoming a Kid Gavilan fan boy...

[Tom Cruise]

So I have been watching a lot of Kid Gavilan recently, well, a lot of that WW era in general (see my sig), and I never realised quite how good this guy was.

I knew him mostly by reputation in the past. The guy who everyone rates as Robinson's greatest WW win. A champion. Top 5 WW. But I had never really sat down and watched his fights, read about his career or studied his resume.

That changed recently as I went on a bit of a binge watching fights from the post Robinson era at WW, a brilliant era featuring the likes of Gavilan, Basilio, Bratton, Saxton, Graham and plenty of tough and capable contenders to flesh things out. Not to mention fighters operating at what would be JMW today such as Ralph Tiger Jones, Rocky Castellani, and ageing LW greats like Ike Williams and Beau Jack.

For a start its worth mentioning that Gavilan fought basically everyone from this era. With wins over everyone ive mentioned so far barring Johnny Saxton (a close points loss), plus many many more contenders such as Demarco, Dykes, Janiro, Bell, Gil Turner, Laussa etc (these names were arbitrarily picked, listing them all would take a lot of time). Also worth mentioning a close MD loss to World MW Champ Bobo Olson.

Its a pretty sensational resume. One of the great resumes of all time in the 147-154lb range. Then we get onto his style...

I consider him to be a kind of prototype for the future Latin American styles of guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, but with a bit more flair and a bit more variety. He had a complete deathly calm about him at all times. Never panicking even in the face of the relentless pressure of bigger, stronger, aggressive opponents like Ralph Jones, or powerful counter punchers like Honey Boy Bratton. Every movement he made was calm and calculated, with very little wasted movement. He could avoid a ferocious combination with little fuss, stepping out of range or with a gentle bob and weave.

His calmness probably also contributed to his unreal chin, he was never knocked out in 143 bouts spanning 15 years and going by boxrec was only dropped twice, which for a fighter as aggressive as Gavilan is extremely impressive. To have that kind of record fighting punchers such as Robinson, Bratton, Laussa, Ike Williams is some feat. IT represents not only his exceptional chin, but his overall toughness as well. Nothing seemed to both him in the ring physically.

Offensively he was a whirlwind. As adept at aggressively overwhelming his opponents with a slew of punches from all angles as he was studiously boxing off the back foot behind his great jab. He may not have been a big one punch guy with just 28 KOs in 108 wins, but it is rare that I watch a Gavilan fight and find him to not hurt his opponent. His was the type of power that takes years off your career. Not enough to put you away maybe, but enough to break bones (as he did breaking Brattons jaw in a two fights iirc) and leave you looking like you had been through a cement mixer. It is perhaps a testament to the toughness of his competition that he didnt score more attritional KOs in the mold of Chavez.

Anyway I am rambling on. Just wanted to share my thoughts on a brilliant fighter who I had given too little time to in the past. Anyone else a fan of the Cuban Hawk?

How do we see him faring vs the best of the rest below SRR in WW atg lists? The likes of Henry Armstrong, Tommy Hearns, SRL, Duran, or (at the risk of derailing the thread) Floyd Mayweather?

Where do you have him ranked all time at WW?

Heres to the Cuban Hawk

[Tom Cruise]

Some really good highlights for a quick intro to his style...

[Tom Cruise]

I had similar experience to yours... also heard about him, but I was stunned when I saw him - To me, personally - one of the greatest fighters I ever seen period.

His calmness was indeed unbelievable - He was fighting in spots mostly - but what enabled him to get away with those all-out flurries was the fact that he could transit back to boxing-mode very quickly and still defend himself well without doing much(But not nothing, his lead hand was always active), and quickly recovering. Not defensive wizard maybe, but hard to nail clean and even when shots were getting through, he was just shaking it off and like you said - It didn't seem to bother him, get him aggrevated - nothing, just straight back to work.

Another thing is that when he was forced to fight, he could step it up to another level offensively - like against Gil Turner who probably figured that if he pushed the pace he would be able to outwork Gavilan.
Amazing war that was, but Gavilan took out everything Turner had and broke him down.


His fights with Robinson are my number 1 Historical fights I wish I could see... Was it close? How did Ray deal with Kid's flurries? Just so intriguing...
I saw Basilio vs Gavilan for example and was thinking that Kid didn't get the credit he deserved, on the scorecards, in that fight - So I was thinking how many of his losses might have been questionable.

Also - I heard a rumour about potential MOB involvment in Gavilan's fight with Saxton... Anybody did any research on that?

Good post mate, green k.

Dont know too much bout Saxton vs Gavilan mob involvement will have a google now. That kind of era so wouldnt surprise me. Would be interesting if it was controversial because Saxton is basically the only top WW of that time who Gavilan doesnt hold a win over (post Robinson Im talking about).

Edit: Very interesting from Wiki...

Johnny Saxton was a promising amateur fighter who won 31 of his 33 amateur bouts. He was twice a National AAU champion and won a Golden Gloves title. When he turned professional in 1949, he was managed by Bill “Pop” Miller, but Miller sold his contract to Palermo for $10,000. In his first 40 pro fight, he racked up a record of 39 wins and one draw. Palermo had once manipulated Billy Fox to a similar record early in his career to make him a contender. Some of Saxton's opponents in the ring in his journeyman days put in such pitiful performances, they angered not only the crowd but ring officials. Saxton became an unpopular fighter.[6]

Saxton lost his first pro bout to Gil Turner in 1953, dropped a decision to Del Flanagan and drew against Johnny Lombardo. After beating Joey Giardello and Johnny Bratton, he met world welterweight champion Kid Gavilan in 1954 in a title bout and defeated him in a fifteen-round decision. That fight was widely thought to be fixed. Bookies reportedly had refused to take wagers on the fight. Gavilan—no stranger to fixed fights—cried and said that he had been given “the business.” Twenty of 22 ringside reporters believed Gavilan won the fight.[7]

In a 2002 interview with The Observer, was one of the ringside observers.

"...Frankie Carbo, the mob's unofficial commissioner for boxing, controlled a lot of the welters and middles.... Not every fight was fixed, of course, but from time to time Carbo and his lieutenants, like Blinky Palermo in Philadelphia, would put the fix in. When the Kid Gavilan-Johnny Saxton fight was won by Saxton on a decision in Philadelphia in 1954, I was covering it for Sports Illustrated and wrote a piece at that time saying boxing was a dirty business and must be cleaned up now. It was an open secret. All the press knew that one - and other fights - were fixed. Gavilan was a mob-controlled fighter, too, and when he fought Billy Graham it was clear Graham had been robbed of the title. The decision would be bought. If it was close, the judges would shade it the way they had been told."[8]

Shame such a great era of fights and fighters was tarnished in this way

[Ray Corso]

I believe in this "current era" The "Keed" stays champ as long as he likes.
He would beat the hell out of Mayweather and would do the same with Thurman.
He was a main event fighter who fought everyone and the Sugarman said often he felt the Keeds punch more than anyone else's. Remember that Sugar fought Middleweights the majority of his career and fought the best there too.
Like Robinson Gavilan was a big welter 5'10.5" funny his KO rate was not high but the top champs and contenders who fought him all said he could hit!
One of my favorites of all time. ATG!

Ray

[chrisJS]

I remember as a kid of around 13 or 14 watching Champions Forever: The Latin Legends (here's the first 30 mins of it for those who haven't seen this great doc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YczPaYH1BcU) and I was familiar with Chavez, Sanchez, Duran, Arguello but only really knew the names not really the stories or fights of Kid Gavilan and Carlos Ortiz so from that I purchased their fights on VHS and read what I could. Ortiz became one of my favorite fighters ever (along with Eder Jofre, Salvador Sanchez, Marvin Hagler, Ruben Olivares, Jose Napoles, Wilfredo Gomez of fighters before my time) but Gavilan really stood out for his speed, poise, intelligence, athleticism and skill set. He was also a showman and generational talent.

He had a great, long career with some excellent wins and series with true badass HOF fighters. Too bad the Robinson fights aren't on film. As far as all-time greats I'd imagine he's in the top 5 at 147 historically perhaps behind only Robinson and Armstrong (arguably 1 & 2 all-time p4p) and probably just ahead of Napoles and Leonard. On a pound for pound all-time scale I'd say he'd likely be just outside my personal top 20. Probably around 20-25/30.

[NChristo]

Always had a love for Gavilan as well, that's why I changed my thing under my forum name to "The Keed", incredible boxer, don't think I can say anything of note which you haven't already. Don't know what it is about him but something about him just screamed out too me, same with Jose Napoles.

[joeandthebums]

Never looked into it, but read once that Gavilan broke his right hand in the early 50's and had to inject novocaine into it before every fight / training until it no longer had any effect.

[chrisJS]

Always had a love for Gavilan as well, that's why I changed my thing under my forum name to "The Keed", incredible boxer, don't think I can say anything of note which you haven't already. Don't know what it is about him but something about him just screamed out too me, same with Jose Napoles.

Mantequilla is a big favorite of mine. So much craft. A joy to watch.

[Tom Cruise]

Always had a love for Gavilan as well, that's why I changed my thing under my forum name to "The Keed", incredible boxer, don't think I can say anything of note which you haven't already. Don't know what it is about him but something about him just screamed out too me, same with Jose Napoles.

They are kind of hypnotic arent they? So relaxed, so functional and precise with their movement.

[IronDanHamza]

Great fighter.

Tough out for any WW.