Charles "Sonny" Liston vs. Rocky Marciano

[Brassangel]

Liston was fairly patient before he fought Clay, unfortunately patience doesn't pose much of a virtue against Rocky Marciano. Rocky will be able to punch better in the later rounds than someone like Liston who, again, wasn't notorious for his longevity. Liston had freakishly long arms, but he didn't do it to keep people away, he simply had a pounding jab. I also remember a fight from 1958 (can't remember who it was against) where it seemed like a jab was the only punch Liston threw for 6 rounds or so. Following a jab with a right hand is pretty elementary, by the way. So yes, he did use the jab. Just because it was long, doesn't mean that he was trying to keep people away with it. Also, he really didn't have to put it to use against a guy who crowded like Marciano. This would really be a far more interesting style matchup than most of the people are giving it credit for. It would be difficult for him to "jackhammer" his jab home against a guy who hugged in close like Marciano did; especially a guy as tough as he was to keep away from. Then again, Liston was a great champion as well, so he may be able to pull it off.

By the way, "So and so said..." doesn't really mean anything. I'm basically walking the line between both sides of the coin here on who to go with. When it comes to Liston and Ali, I swear SABBATH, you are butterfly with better grammar.

[SABBATH]

Liston was fairly patient before he fought Clay, unfortunately patience doesn't pose much of a virtue against Rocky Marciano. Rocky will be able to punch better in the later rounds than someone like Liston who, again, wasn't notorious for his longevity. Liston had freakishly long arms, but he didn't do it to keep people away, he simply had a pounding jab. I also remember a fight from 1958 (can't remember who it was against) where it seemed like a jab was the only punch Liston threw for 6 rounds or so. Following a jab with a right hand is pretty elementary, by the way. So yes, he did use the jab. Just because it was long, doesn't mean that he was trying to keep people away with it. Also, he really didn't have to put it to use against a guy who crowded like Marciano. This would really be a far more interesting style matchup than most of the people are giving it credit for. It would be difficult for him to "jackhammer" his jab home against a guy who hugged in close like Marciano did; especially a guy as tough as he was to keep away from. Then again, Liston was a great champion as well, so he may be able to pull it off.

By the way, "So and so said..." doesn't really mean anything. I'm basically walking the line between both sides of the coin here on who to go with. When it comes to Liston and Ali, I swear SABBATH, you are butterfly with better grammar.

Your analogies and breakdowns of fighting styles are humorous as are your attempts to take immature swipes any time I post a difference of opinion. It does nothing more than demonstrate your own insecurity and lack of confidence. Go back to ESB and your Tyson is God woulda, coulda, shoulda, mighta postings and stop polluting these threads with antagonistic babble everytime you run across anyone that sees through your transparent lack of knowledge. If you're not willing to do your homework and research then put a lid on it.

As for "so and so said doesn't really mean anything" that's why you will never learn anything pertaining to boxing. The words of Milt Bailey who assisted in the training and was a cornerman for both Liston and Frazier would certainly carry more insightful knowledge that anything a dream living fairy tale writer like yourself could ever hope to.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

I've never read this- not to say its wrong but quite the contrary Marciano was preparing to come out of retirement to fight Liston but decided not to because he didn't want Liston to have the privildge of having his (Marciano's) name on Liston's record.- Like Louis had done with Marciano.

[SABBATH]

I've never read this- not to say its wrong but quite the contrary Marciano was preparing to come out of retirement to fight Liston but decided not to because he didn't want Liston to have the privildge of having his (Marciano's) name on Liston's record.- Like Louis had done with Marciano.

Actually, Marciano was going to come out of retirement and fight Ingemar Johannson who Rock held in low regard. Marciano actually began training then scrapped the idea when he realized how much work he would need to do to get in fighting shape. I don't believe he made a formal announcement but he did start training according to his biography. I've researched quite a bit of Marciano and I've never heard that he wanted to come out of retirememnt to fight Liston. If it was to fight Liston for the title then Marciano would have been retired for 8 years and would have been 40, an unlikely scenario.

[Brassangel]

I do plenty of research, it's the only reason I enjoy watching your cut-and-paste, rub oil on the 70's comments. I'll admit, you dig pretty deep into a lot of your findings, SABBATH. While you like to claim that I take immature swipes at you, it's rather contradictory given that you immediately follow such a claim with rediculous accusations about my stand(s) on Tyson, and fighting styles. Seeing as how styles are subject to observational analysis, I'm probably not the only one who views things differently than you on multiple subjects. I don't intend to grapple with you about it, but you seem to take aim at my posts (at least when they're short), grab one line, and chew on it like you're the resident authority on boxing knowledge. That's in poor taste and radiates immaturity; especially given your arrogance in stating (on more than one occassion) that you are above the other members of this site.

Since I'm sure the other readers would like this to be about Liston vs. Marciano, I'll take a bow and return to the subject proper. Let's see if you actually read this whole post instead of quoting it and attacking it. I suppose copy-and-paste is more your style.

My claims are made evident by the fact that you rarely state something of your own observation, and instead post what somebody else said at one time. If we aren't allowed our own opinions, educated, informed, or simply personal, what's the point of being permitted to post when you're just going to jump in with some guy's quote that differs from a viewer's take? I'll see you in future posts.

Hopefully, this will stop; then again, you'll probably assume you need to have the last word...which will likely be a quote from someone else.

[SABBATH]

I do plenty of research, it's the only reason I enjoy watching your cut-and-paste, rub oil on the 70's comments. I'll admit, you dig pretty deep into a lot of your findings, SABBATH. While you like to claim that I take immature swipes at you, it's rather contradictory given that you immediately follow such a claim with rediculous accusations about my stand(s) on Tyson, and fighting styles. Seeing as how styles are subject to observational analysis, I'm probably not the only one who views things differently than you on multiple subjects. I don't intend to grapple with you about it, but you seem to take aim at my posts (at least when they're short), grab one line, and chew on it like you're the resident authority on boxing knowledge. That's in poor taste and radiates immaturity; especially given your arrogance in stating (on more than one occassion) that you are above the other members of this site.

Since I'm sure the other readers would like this to be about Liston vs. Marciano, I'll take a bow and return to the subject proper. Let's see if you actually read this whole post instead of quoting it and attacking it. I suppose copy-and-paste is more your style.

My claims are made evident by the fact that you rarely state something of your own observation, and instead post what somebody else said at one time. If we aren't allowed our own opinions, educated, informed, or simply personal, what's the point of being permitted to post when you're just going to jump in with some guy's quote that differs from a viewer's take? I'll see you in future posts.

Hopefully, this will stop; then again, you'll probably assume you need to have the last word...which will likely be a quote from someone else.

You could save yourself alot of typing time by realizing I don't read your poorly written uneducated drivel. I save my conversations for those who actually know and understand boxing.

[butterfly1964]

Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

Thank you, Sabbath. Mostly everything you said about Liston are things I have said in the past, but they didn't believe me. They watch one fight (the clay fight) and they think that Liston's a joke. Then why don't ya'll think Foreman's a joke, huh? Liston deserves just as much credit as he gets. Watch Liston's rematch against Bert Whitehurst and his fight against Eddie Machen and you will see that Liston could box very well. He was like Joe Louis, only bigger and stronger (although a might slower).

Now do ya'll believe me?

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Thank you, Sabbath. Mostly everything you said about Liston are things I have said in the past, but they didn't believe me. They watch one fight (the clay fight) and they think that Liston's a joke. Then why don't ya'll think Foreman's a joke, huh? Liston deserves just as much credit as he gets. Watch Liston's rematch against Bert Whitehurst and his fight against Eddie Machen and you will see that Liston could box very well. He was like Joe Louis, only bigger and stronger (although a might slower).

Now do ya'll believe me?

I've seen more then just the clay fight, I've seen Liston against Patterson, and a few other guys that Yogi put up for download in his thread... I rate him as I always have good, but very overrated by many.

[Brassangel]

Originally Posted by SABBATH
You could save yourself alot of typing time by realizing I don't read your poorly written uneducated drivel. I save my conversations for those who actually know and understand boxing.

Obviously, since you reply to my posts nearly every time. Perhaps it's a matter of a short attention span, similar to that of a junior high schooler. I suppose that explains why you won't speak for yourself; but from another point of view instead. Why should you have to read everything to learn when you can just quote what's written down? You've found a nice shortcut in the system...good for you!

@butterfly:

I think that Liston's great. His career, at least in my book, isn't based upon his matches with Clay, as he was clearly under-prepared, and beyond his best years in terms of heart. That, and Clay was extremely slippery in those days.

I believe that we have two fairly slow moving targets, with decent hand speed when it was necessary. Liston was a more skilled boxer, and a fine physical specimen, while Marciano had enormous heart, determination, and stamina. Ironically, many of the "intelligent" ones in here would say that Liston's physical gifts and boxing skills would overcome Marciano, but they wouldn't say so in other head-to-head scenarios.

I think it would be a brawl as Liston wouldn't be able to put Rocky away early, but Rocky would have some trouble getting to Sonny at first. Marciano could take a hefty beating, but he probably never put up with a puncher like Sonny. Equally, Liston probably never had to deal with someone who could take it like the Rock, or who would crowd him all night long.

It's a good one...one I'd pay to see.

[Brassangel]

One thing I will totally concede for Liston, however, is that he'd probably shock Marciano, or even knock him down a few times. Rocky would probably rethink his approach after a few paws from the Bear.