Charles "Sonny" Liston vs. Rocky Marciano

[SABBATH]

I've seen more then just the clay fight, I've seen Liston against Patterson, and a few other guys that Yogi put up for download in his thread... I rate him as I always have good, but very overrated by many.

I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.

[Brassangel]

Originally Posted by SABBATH
I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.

Good post.

[BKM-]

Good post.

Good post, Lots of points and good k for you!!

[RockyMarcianofan00]

I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Thats what I'm talking about

[SABBATH]

Thats what I'm talking about

Here are the most recent IBRO rating which ranks Liston at #9. The highest I have seen a credible boxing historian rate Liston is at #3 by Herbert Goldman in 1997 and #4 by Frank Lotierzo a few years ago. Other than those two guys most historians rate Liston around 9th or 10th. Personally I rate Liston somewhere between 4th-7th.

IBRO Member Poll

1. Joe Louis

2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Larry Holmes
7. James Jeffries
8. George Foreman
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

Herbert Goldman

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Sonny Liston
4. Mike Tyson
5. Larry Holmes
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. George Foreman
9. Rocky Marciano
10. Joe Frazier

Frank Lotierzo ( from the Joe Louis era onwards)

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Sonny Liston
5. Joe Frazier
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Larry Holmes
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Mike Tyson
    

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Sonny Liston at 6 or below is good and I definitely think Sonny Liston should be ahead of Jack Johnson..Marciano at 6 or better is decent, and Dempsey at 7 or better is good...Joe Louis should always be in the number 1 or 2 position...this is my opinion..

[number6]

I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.

This is a top post

[Southpaw Stinger]

Sonny Liston at 6 or below is good and I definitely think Sonny Liston should be ahead of Jack Johnson..Marciano at 6 or better is decent, and Dempsey at 7 or better is good...Joe Louis should always be in the number 1 or 2 position...this is my opinion..

I don't see why anyone would put Johnson in the top 10..

[SABBATH]

I don't see why anyone would put Johnson in the top 10..

Johnson is still regarded in high esteem by many historians but he did mysteriously move up in the IBRO ratings after the "Unforgiveable Blackness" Ken Burns documentary.

Personally Jack Johnson has always fascinated me and I have collected and studied his fights as well as read many books (including his autobiography) periodical newspaper accounts etc...for close to 30 years. I am a fan but objectively speaking I do not rate him in my top 10.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

He's more a historic figure then a top notch fighter. I don't consider him top10, I can see at least 5 fighters that are more deserving..