How Hard Was Robinson's Punch?

[The Old LefHook]

This one demonstrates the ongoing effort to be more precise with the measurments.

http://strike-research.org/

[them_apples]

I am going to give you ten middleweight punchers, you bold the one whose punch force you think is closest to Robinson's. No surprise factor because of speed, we are looking for pure force in this one. I will color the one(s) red I think punch harder than Robinson. You can do the same.

1 Sugar Ray Leonard
2 Marvin Hagler
3 Carlos Monzon
4 Rocky Graziano
5 Gerald McClellan
6 Tony Zale
7 GGG
8 Barkley
9 Stanley Ketchel
10 Julian Jackson

Besides superceding everyone in almost every category, Robinson also out punches almost all middleweights in history for pure force. We do not know if his chin was really as good as Hagler's, but we know it was awful good. Not quite as good as Hagler's, though, I would personally judge, if that category were to be debated.

Someone--possibly our own Ecurb, for I have entirely forgotten-- gave a pretty good analysis of the force behind Robinson's punches and how he whips the arm at the last moment for additional impact.

Neither Barkley or Jackson has nearly the boxing acumen of Robinson--in other terms they would be way out-IQ'd in a match. Barkley was a beast of a puncher, though, and could flatten people. I do not feel sure he could punch harder than Robinson when you take away the speed factor which surprises and knocks fighters out, but his beastly, hairy body might well throw a single shot harder than Ray, which is why I put him in blue.

I already know who the more effective puncher is, effectiveness not being a function of power alone, and that Robinson's punches will flatten opponents more often than Barkley's because of that superiority in overall effectiveness, technique and speed. Still, the beast Barkley might indeed be able to coil up for a single shot stronger on the meter than Robby's best effort.

Feel free to change colors as well.

the night Hearns got in with Hagler, he broke his hand and the fight was over, but Hagler ruined Hearns. That being said Hearns brought a lot of power up.

Mcclellan I think might have had a better right hand than RR. powerwise.

[hyo]

[QUOTE=The Old LefHook;17610240]I am going to give you ten middleweight punchers, you bold the one whose punch force you think is closest to Robinson's. No surprise factor because of speed, we are looking for pure force in this one. I will color the one(s) red I think punch harder than Robinson. You can do the same.

1 Sugar Ray Leonard
2 Marvin Hagler
3 Carlos Monzon
4 Rocky Graziano
5 Gerald McClellan
6 Tony Zale
7 GGG
8 Barkley
9 Stanley Ketchel
10 Julian Jackson

Besides superceding everyone in almost every category, Robinson also out punches almost all middleweights in history for pure force. We do not know if his chin was really as good as Hagler's, but we know it was awful good. Not quite as good as Hagler's, though, I would personally judge, if that category were to be debated.

Someone--possibly our own Ecurb, for I have entirely forgotten-- gave a pretty good analysis of the force behind Robinson's punches and how he whips the arm at the last moment for additional impact.

Neither Barkley or Jackson has nearly the boxing acumen of Robinson--in other terms they would be way out-IQ'd in a match. Barkley was a beast of a puncher, though, and could flatten people. I do not feel sure he could punch harder than Robinson when you take away the speed factor which surprises and knocks fighters out, but his beastly, hairy body might well throw a single shot harder than Ray, which is why I put him in blue.

I already know who the more effective puncher is, effectiveness not being a function of power alone, and that Robinson's punches will flatten opponents more often than Barkley's because of that superiority in overall effectiveness, technique and speed. Still, the beast Barkley might indeed be able to coil up for a single shot stronger on the meter than Robby's best effort.

Feel free to change colors as well.[/QUOTE

GGG,Hagler,Jackson,McCllelan and Ketchel probably all hit harder than Ray, but none had his skill, his precision, his speed or his ring IQ. Robinson was not a hard puncher, just a great boxer.

[The Old LefHook]

Hmmm, second on the all time KO list, he did not punch hard, though. Perfect sense.

I think that Robinson was not a hard puncher just a great boxer, is a silly statement. We have it from the mouths of various opponents known to be able to take it that he had a real wallop. Basilio and LaMotta both testified to his power. Fullmer did not have to testify.

I do not think he was the very hardest middleweight puncher either, but I say he was among the hardest, and I believe he was certainly the best puncher of all middleweights, considering all aspects, techniques and varieties of punching. He had every punch and even threw Gavilan's bolo a couple of times. He did some clowing in the 1950 Dykes fight, which showed me he could probably chase down an athletic runner like Leonard to land his shots.

Cutting off the ring is a techniqe he may not have used. There was not much need. He was usually the one hard to find. Maybe someone can find an instance of him doing it. In his latter years he did face a notable runner in Archer, but was too shot to hunt him down.

Also of note: the ring size for Robinson/Fullmer IV was a mere 16 1/2 feet. The fight was in Las Vegas. When Robinson learned of the ring size he refused to fight, so the boxing commissioners snipped 3 1/2 feet from a tape and fooled Robinson's trainer George Gainford. The ring was also very soft with extra padding, which of course the mover Robinson did not like. In addition, they were forced to wear eight ounce instead of six ounce gloves. By this time promoters, commissions and gangsters (often the same people) were weary of Robinson's continual haggling over conditions and fees, and preferred a champion easier to control and negotiate with, so the fights in his waning years of success were often stacked against him. Even the referee for this fight was a poor choice for him, hand picked for that reason.

[phallus]

I am going to give you ten middleweight punchers, you bold the one whose punch force you think is closest to Robinson's. No surprise factor because of speed, we are looking for pure force in this one. I will color the one(s) red I think punch harder than Robinson. You can do the same.

1 Sugar Ray Leonard
2 Marvin Hagler
3 Carlos Monzon
4 Rocky Graziano
5 Gerald McClellan
6 Tony Zale
7 GGG
8 Barkley
9 Stanley Ketchel
10 Julian Jackson

Besides superceding everyone in almost every category, Robinson also out punches almost all middleweights in history for pure force. We do not know if his chin was really as good as Hagler's, but we know it was awful good. Not quite as good as Hagler's, though, I would personally judge, if that category were to be debated.

Someone--possibly our own Ecurb, for I have entirely forgotten-- gave a pretty good analysis of the force behind Robinson's punches and how he whips the arm at the last moment for additional impact.

Neither Barkley or Jackson has nearly the boxing acumen of Robinson--in other terms they would be way out-IQ'd in a match. Barkley was a beast of a puncher, though, and could flatten people. I do not feel sure he could punch harder than Robinson when you take away the speed factor which surprises and knocks fighters out, but his beastly, hairy body might well throw a single shot harder than Ray, which is why I put him in blue.

I already know who the more effective puncher is, effectiveness not being a function of power alone, and that Robinson's punches will flatten opponents more often than Barkley's because of that superiority in overall effectiveness, technique and speed. Still, the beast Barkley might indeed be able to coil up for a single shot stronger on the meter than Robby's best effort.

Feel free to change colors as well.

i think robinson had the best speed, skills and flexibility compared to the other boxers listed, McClellan and Barkley might have had more raw power than him, but as we see with hard punchers like Rubin Carter, if you can't properly set up those power shots its useless. Sugar Ray Rob was the only boxer i've ever seen who could beat any style of fighter

[The Old LefHook]

Last night I re-watched Robinson/Fullmer IV. What amazed me was how hard they fought. This would danged near be a fight of the year candidate these days. Every round was hard fought with lots of rough housing. The referree, as expected, let Fullmer slide on every butt, shoulder and elbow foul he committed, which were, believe me, numerous. Robinson fought completely cleanly, as always. The referee had the gall to warn Robinson once about a low blow.

Robinson was at 41 a completely viable fighter, one sees from the tape, it's just that he was no longer what people remembered. If we were told this was a tape of a 26 year old fighter in battle, we would not even question it. Fullmer was whipping the tar out of everyone else.

Robinson still had his full kit of tools. It is really amazing that Gainford and Wiley had already walked out on him once after the Tiger Jones fight because you should quit, Ray. I really believe that if they had a 23 year old fighter able to fight as well as Robby did at 41, they would likely be touting him as the next star of a champ. But he had been Sugar Ray Robinson, the greatest, now he was just Robinson.

When you see how well this shell of himself performs against the young bull Fullmer, it gives you some idea how good he must once have been for his own beloved trainers to have walked out on him six years prior who had been with him since day one and adored him like a son. Those trainers, who knew his boxing better than anyone else, figured he was shot six years before this last fight with Fullmer. They were talked into coming back by Edna Mae, and then stayed until the end.

I urge folks to take a look at this fight themselves. You will see that Robinson is not the the bag of mediocrity we envision a shot fighter to be. The surprising thing is that he was still so good during an era when 41 was truly ancient for a fighter. I think you will be a little surprised if you have never seen it or do not remember the details. This might lead you to conclude that the shell must have really been something at one time.

Ray himself once said he could still see the openings but could no longer react before they were gone.

[The Old LefHook]

Most boxing biographies could begin with recounting the time when a young kid walked into a boxing gym for the first time. If they do not begin exactly here, the author always gets to that particular story before long.

The old trainers begin to suspect something special about the kid, who is persistent. He gets more and more of their attention. The kid absorbs everything. Ray also spent time at Grupp's gymnasium, the forerunner of Stillman's, where he received further instruction from such old timers as Soldier Jones, Kid Norfolk, Harry Wills and Panama Joe Gans, who all gave him individual lessons in various aspects of boxing, from balance to punching and parrying.

The staff at the Salem Crescent Gym included William Pops Miller who had trained Tiger Flowers, George Gainford and Spider Valentine.

The kid was Walker Smith, and he lived in the right neighborhood to receive world class instruction. The cadre of trainers and old boxers who took him under their guidance is impressive, and helps explain why he was as well rounded as any fighter in history. Robinson was as fully educated in the fine points of the art of boxing as any fighter before or after him. He had their resources available to him and he used them voraciously. He took the combined knowledge of a group of masters and forged the pieces into his own style.

So much form that had become instinctive is one reason Robinson still looked good in the ring in his later years. A deep bag of traditional skills has also enabled Floyd Mayweather to continue to look good in the ring when he was near forty, though everyone observed a decline of his speed. Hopkins had a deep traditional bag. On the flip side, fighters who were great natural specimens and relied on that more than the traditinal bag, such as Leonard, Ali and Jones, are complete failures in "old age," as boxers.

We know young Walker had been carrying the bags of Joe Louis to gyms way back in Detroit, so his involvement with boxing even precedes New York.

The story of prodigies who produce as adults is usually one of being discovered and taken under the guidance of qualified tutors at an early age, whether it be Gauss and Euler in mathematics, or Robinson and Tyson in boxing. When the prodigy meets the qualified trainer, history has finally satisfied herself, and then we can be satisfied, too. As the story of a prodigy who will produce later, Robinson's early story follows the normal path. His success no longer startles us.

[BattlingNelson]

Several great efforts and information in this thread. Thanks fellas.

[The Old LefHook]

Yes, I did read the book I downloaded Pound For Pound on Sugar Ray Robinson. In my summaries I am careful not to plagarize any of the words of the author Herb Boy with Ray Robinson II. The book is well written and even has an extensive index I can check when I need a name.

Since I am a retired guy with nothing else to do today...

* * * * *

After how many fights do a fighter's body and reflexes begin to deteriorate? The answer, of course, will vary from fighter to fighter and style to style, and is also a matter of absolute age. We do not expect the practitioner of a Marcianoesque style to stay at his peak as long as a Mayweatherian fighter. In addition, some human beings are simply more innately fragile than others, and can endure less pounding. This last is a supposition which I believe. I also believe that in some cases this susceptibility might come from concussions obtained unkowingly in the early career or training.

We will ignore fights as an amateur and concentrate on how many professional fights are enough. Another factor we have not mentioned is the quality of the fights. The level of opposition makes a difference.

Normally, in the old days they started fighters out a little gently, too. Many of a pro's fights were tuneups to keep him in shape. A champ fought many non title bouts in those days. If he got beat by one of those opponents he was then expected to fight him soon for his title. The challenger had a reason to cry to the press.

They may have started Robinson gently, I don't know for sure, but it was no time at all before he was facing men the quality of Fritzie Zivic, upon whom he personally wanted vengeance for his beating up of Henry Armstrong.

If I wanted to look at what I consider Robinson's absolute prime, I would cut his career off after the sixth LaMotta fight. I have not counted, but I believe this would leave his record in the neighborhood of 121-1-1. Not bad. Ahem! Personally, I believe his absolute physical prime was already over by this fight, he had been fighting for eleven years as a professional with over 120 fights. I am sure this is enough fights to be enough for any human body, even with extraordinary skills. I believe that limit is somewhat lower, about 80 fights for the old time customs, and fewer for today, where after becoming champ all fights are normally of degrading quality on the body and for the championship.

If we looked at Robinson's career from 80 fights or 120 fights there would hardly be any damage to the record, so we might as well look at it from 120 fights. I do not even know if his KO ratio would change much.

I will have to look all that stuff up and get back on a later post. My old computer has a habit of freezing up on me these days, so I want to get this part of my summary posted before it does it again. Be back...

[The Old LefHook]

Robinson's record after Lamotta VI would have been 121-1-2, the way boxrec lists it, with the 2 being draws. One loss out of 124 fights. His KO ratio at that point would have been 63.7%.

If we look at his career from only 80 fights downward, his KO rate is nearly identical at 63.75%, and the overall record was 80-1-1.

See what I mean about not much difference in the quality of his record when he was in his dead prime and when he was probably slightly past it? He was that much better than normal opposition that it it did not affect his record for a little prime slippage to occur. We know we can count on age and battering, however, to slow a fighter down. Whether Robinson's prime is before 80 fights or before 125 fights, is all a matter of conjecture, but neither marker affects his record much. Some believe he was still in his physical prime at this point (LaMotta VI), which is okay with me, though I personally believe he was already going slightly downhill by this time and was merely so much better than everyone else that the slight physical slippage did not show up in his record as taking place at all.

My belief is based on what I know and have observed about the human body, Robinson's number of fights by the age he fought LaMotta VI, and the difference in the speed of Robby for that fight vs his speed on the small amount of welterweight tape available..