Why was M. Spinks so Hard to Fight?

[Ray Corso]

"that era was the golden era of the light heavyweight division and he ruled".........

Sorry but Spink's era was decent but no where the best.

Ray

[billeau2]

A family affair... Leon had a few chops as well, even Corrie. Very well rounded fighter.

[NChristo]

Would anyone consider Spinks an ATG? He did virtually clean out a tough LHW division and beat an undefeated Holmes twice(arguably).

Similar to Holyfield without the longevity at HW.

Everyone should consider him an ATG, minimum top 10 LHW.

[The Old LefHook]

I agree Spinks is an ATG in his division.

Part of his awkwardness was in that roundhouse duck to the left he used all the time. To the eye it appears to be the clumsy move of an amateur, but then it works almost everytime.

[The Old LefHook]

<"swear he was a bum"............???? Where do you come up with bum?

A bum is someone who lacks "effort"! When did Mike ever lack effort.
You guys really need to learn boxing terminology.
Bum is not about skills or talent it's about performing at a lower level than your best.

Ray>

Are you trying to tell me that a boxer can be called a bum for no other reason than lack of effort? I don't buy it.

This is your interpretation of the word only, and a very confining one. I cannot accept it as the only basis for calling someone a bum in boxing.

And of course I was not calling Spinks a bum at all. I was remarking that his awkwardness could be confused with lack of skill upon first seeing him, until one notices that everything he does is working. I said the man looked off balance, I didn't say he was off balance.

[billeau2]

Everyone should consider him an ATG, minimum top 10 LHW.

This is another problem I have with "list thinking." it creates a mindset that often neglects "horse sense," Aristotle's expression for common sense. Light heavy is actually a fluid category... many of the guys moves around to heavy and I guess cruiser...Although that was a later division.

Tunney was imo an ATG heavyweight but perhaps the best Light heavy. Archie Moore is another guy who put in work at light heavy but was in other weight classes a lot of the time and by total contrast we have michael moore, a fighter who was not particularly good as a heavyweight, or any other division, but who was an exceptional Light heavyweight, who I would put against some of the best in that particular weight class.

Its hard to make a list of these guys and it often does not do them justice. Philosophically we can ask: If we take a guy like Maxie Rosenbloom, a guy who fought most of his long career as a light heavy, and was an excellent fighter, does his experience in the division make him a better light heavy per se than Gene Tunney, who might be the best ever at that weight but was also a great heavyweight and fought very little at that weight limit?

Weight class drift is a little different for a guy looking to pick low hanging fruit, or even for a guy like Hopkins, than for a guy who fights in a division like Light heavy. I have yet to figure out what the ultimate purpose a fighter like Foster has: the man had a heavyweight punch and if his opponent was not named Muhammed Ali, had success as a heavyweight, including with Quarry, who was no slouch. Does he excel in his division? or clean up the division with the expectation to challenge as a smaller heavyweight?

It gets more confounding because while guys like Archie Moore, who had more career KO's than anyone I believe, had mixed results at best going up...a guy like Michael Moore, beat one of the best heavyweights (Holyfield). Finally lets take Bellew. Is his job to go out there and fight as a small heavyweight? or reign supreme as he can going back down...Again, Roy Jones tried this stunt some time ago.

To bring this full circle the question is, what is the goal of a guy who wants to be on the list of elite light heavies? Is it to reign supreme in the division? Like Spinks did? or is it to fight as much as possible including as a heavyweight, but still be considered a light heavy? Like Tunney is considered by some?

[Ray Corso]

"Are you trying to tell me that a boxer can be called a bum for no other reason than lack of effort? I don't buy it".

The knowledge is free you don't need to buy it!


Use the word anyway you want to!
I've tried for years to give away some of my knowledge of this sport to people with absolutely NO experience in the sport.
Yet they take it as if I'm shaming them instead of teaching.
Elroy was the worst but at least he had guts to stick to his word when I proved him wrong.

BUM on this forum has more meanings than a four legged table.

good luck sonny

[Anthony342]

I've usually seen Ezzard Charles listed as the best at light heavy. Is it true he never got a shot at the title there, which made him move up to heavyweight? Also listed in most top 5 lists are Foster, Spinks, Moore, Tunney. Guys like Roy Jones and Michael Moorer usually come after that, like top 10-15. Am I right on this? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. From looking at records, I'd probably go with Foster or Charles, with Spinks right up there.

[StarshipTrooper]

This is another problem I have with "list thinking." it creates a mindset that often neglects "horse sense," Aristotle's expression for common sense. Light heavy is actually a fluid category... many of the guys moves around to heavy and I guess cruiser...Although that was a later division.

Tunney was imo an ATG heavyweight but perhaps the best Light heavy. Archie Moore is another guy who put in work at light heavy but was in other weight classes a lot of the time and by total contrast we have michael moore, a fighter who was not particularly good as a heavyweight, or any other division, but who was an exceptional Light heavyweight, who I would put against some of the best in that particular weight class.

Its hard to make a list of these guys and it often does not do them justice. Philosophically we can ask: If we take a guy like Maxie Rosenbloom, a guy who fought most of his long career as a light heavy, and was an excellent fighter, does his experience in the division make him a better light heavy per se than Gene Tunney, who might be the best ever at that weight but was also a great heavyweight and fought very little at that weight limit?

Weight class drift is a little different for a guy looking to pick low hanging fruit, or even for a guy like Hopkins, than for a guy who fights in a division like Light heavy. I have yet to figure out what the ultimate purpose a fighter like Foster has: the man had a heavyweight punch and if his opponent was not named Muhammed Ali, had success as a heavyweight, including with Quarry, who was no slouch. Does he excel in his division? or clean up the division with the expectation to challenge as a smaller heavyweight?

It gets more confounding because while guys like Archie Moore, who had more career KO's than anyone I believe, had mixed results at best going up...a guy like Michael Moore, beat one of the best heavyweights (Holyfield). Finally lets take Bellew. Is his job to go out there and fight as a small heavyweight? or reign supreme as he can going back down...Again, Roy Jones tried this stunt some time ago.

To bring this full circle the question is, what is the goal of a guy who wants to be on the list of elite light heavies? Is it to reign supreme in the division? Like Spinks did? or is it to fight as much as possible including as a heavyweight, but still be considered a light heavy? Like Tunney is considered by some?

Only problem with Tunney is he only had around six fights at Heavyweight. I have a hard time justifying him as a ATG Heavyweight given how few fights he had there.

[NChristo]

To bring this full circle the question is, what is the goal of a guy who wants to be on the list of elite light heavies? Is it to reign supreme in the division? Like Spinks did? or is it to fight as much as possible including as a heavyweight, but still be considered a light heavy? Like Tunney is considered by some?

The goal of a guy who wants to be on the list of elite light heavies is to remain on top of the Light Heavyweight division, what he does in other weight classes is irrelevent if we're only talking about that division and not ranking their careers as a whole. Light Heavyweight is one of the more stacked divisions in terms of the all time greats and Spinks is among the best of them. Tunney's Light Heavyweight resume and his skill are what make people rate him so high at Light Heavy, not what he did at Heavyweight.