Ali vs. Tyson: out on a fragile limb.

[BKM-]

Y'all one of them dim witted fellers ain't ya?

No need to develop that 'ol Yankee boy from the Catskills. He done real good against that there Douglas feller when a little mobility and some punchin' back from an average heavyweight done the 'ol trick any old how.

Dang Yankee never did figure out how to dig deep. Y'see cowpoke, that feller from the Catskills never did no learnin' on how do y'all say "a little adversity?"

I heard there was a boy by the name of Wilfred Benitez or sumthin'. Won a junior-welter title at 17 years of age against a hall of famer. Well I'll be a horned tooth jackass. He musta been better than that there Sugar Ray Robinson feller'!

Im just gald them fine taxpayers down in 'ol Muleshoe been puttin' money inta programs that allow the mentally disabled to learn a few computer skills.

Y'all type alright usin just yer thumbs country boy.


COME ON DOWN TO WHERE IT'S LEGAL TO MARRY YER FIRST COUSIN!

Just shut the **** up with that bull****. Its NOT funny, and you will never be funny. If you can't post like a sane person, dont bother at all.

[K-DOGG]

I might have posted this before. If so, sorry; but here's how I see a prime Ali vs a prime Tyson from an objective analytical break-down.

The Mike Tyson I’ll be using is the one who fought Michael Spinks in 1988. To refresh your memory, Mike was three days shy of his 22nd birthday, 34-0 (30), and weighed in at 218 ¼ Lbs.

The first thing people think about when the name, Mike Tyson, comes up is his punching power; but I submit that it wasn’t only his natural punching ability that made Mike as good as he was, it was a combination of talents. Mike was freakishly fast for a heavyweight, able to unload up to five punches in less than two seconds. In addition to his hand-speed and punching power, Mike had phenomenal head movement, making him extraordinarily difficult to hit while he bobbed and weaved looking for the opportunity to unload not just one; but a whole volley of power shots on his opponent.

Now, here’s the trick; obviously there were things about Mike we hadn’t learned at the time of the Spinks fight that we know now. For example, with Muhammad Ali, his peak was arguably against Cleveland Williams, since we’ll never know how good he could have been during the three years he was banned from fighting. At the time of the Williams fight, nobody knew how good Ali could take a punch because no one had really been able to hit him solid, with the obvious exceptions of Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks. It was only after we saw Ali fight in the second half of his career, that we knew he had a granite jaw. Since granite does not grow overnight and a fighter’s chin does not get better with time, we have to presume Ali could take a punch just as well at 25 as he could at 35, if not better. Cliché, though it is, hindsight is 20/20, so we might as well use it.

On November 14th, 1966, a 24 year old Muhammad Ali climbed into the ring with Clevand Williams in Houston, Texas and showed us what a complete fighter looks like: blinding speed of hand and foot and with that speed, power that belied his frame. Ali would never look so good in the ring again as he did against Williams, so that’s the Ali we’ll use. At the time, he had a record of 26-0 (21) and weighed in at a svelte 212 ¾ lbs. For those that do not know, Ali had a rapier-like jab, and had arguably the fastest hands of any heavyweight who ever lived and most assuredly the fastest feet. Ali could start throwing a punch when he was out of range and his feet would carry him in range to land the shot and out again before his opponent could get off a counter.

When the opening bell sounds, it has to be rung twice because neither fighter can hear it over the roar of the crowd. When the bout does get under way, both men rush to ring center, with Ali, at the last second sidestepping while pulling back to miss a murderous left hook. Tyson, while fast of hand, has to be within range for that hand-speed to amount to anything and Ali is quite content to keep him at the end of a blistering jab, which, to his surprise, isn’t landing as often as he’d like. The whole round consists of Tyson bobbing and weaving very quickly towards Ali, only to be alone when he gets to where Ali was just a second before.

Every time Mike gets close, he is peppered with razor-sharp jabs and rights for his efforts and has no one to get revenge on when the punches stop. At the end of the first round, Tyson motions furiously at Ali, angry that he apparently didn’t come to fight. By the third, Ali has Mike’s timing down and begins to rip in a few hooks of his own amid the jabs and rights. While nothing seems to be affecting Tyson, the points are piling up. When the bell rings for the 8th, there is a visible swelling around Mike’s left eye and he still has yet to connect with anything solid and is starting to swing wildly, lunging out of desperation and frustration at a target that is never in range.

At the start of the 10th, Mike’s right eye is also swollen with a good sized gash above the lid and his left eye is all but closed. Smelling the end, Ali suddenly plants his feet and unloads a blur of straight rights, hooks and uppercuts on a Tyson, who is totally caught off guard by this sudden offensive outburst. By the time he can fire off a counter, Ali is out of the way again. As soon as he thinks Ali’s onslaught is over, Mike’s caught with a solid double hook off the jab, which causes him to visibly wobble.

Lunging for retribution with a whistling left hook, Mike catches nothing but air and is blasted for his trouble with a surprisingly powerful right cross, which knocks him off balance into the ropes. Before he can steady himself, Tyson is caught in a blizzard of punches that seem to be coming from every conceivable angle. Again he lunges forward with an uppercut that misses and catches a solid hook for his trouble, followed by another straight right and drops to the canvas as much out of confusion as out of hurt. Mike reaches his feet at the count of eight and affirms to the referee that he wants to continue. However the ref is now looking at Mike’s right eye, from which is flowing a cascade of crimson and waves the fight off, determining Tyson can no longer see incoming shots. Mike protests to no avail.

Here's my reasoning: Mike Tyson’s career will ultimately be seen as incomplete. He never achieved his potential because something of finer quality was missing. If this weren't so, he would have had a better second career than he did....no, he'd never be able to be as good as in his youth; but it wouldn't have gone the way it did. He lost his hunger for the game in prison, Ali became famished for the sport in exile....that says something abou the drive of both men and the differences in them as men.

Once you got past the power and the extraordinary ability, there was a big gaping hole. Said hole, is why he never came back to win a fight he was behind in, said hole is why he bit off Holyfield’s ear when it became obvious to him that Evander was about to embarrass him again, and said hole is why he could never beat the game’s immortals.

Where he was empty as a fighter, Ali was overflowing with the intangible qualities of heart and will to win, or simply put….belief in one’s self. Tyson exuded arrogance and self-confidence; but I submit it was the equivalent of a scared child whistling in the graveyard, especially in the second career; a man, who had no answers when plan “A” didn’t work....as he didn't in career 1, Rooney did.

I’m not hating on Tyson. I’m calling it as I see it. In the end, Mike was an incomplete fighter and no incomplete fighter can beat a complete one.

Finis'

[Brassangel]

Originally posted by K-DOGG
I might have posted this before. If so, sorry; but here's how I see a prime Ali vs a prime Tyson from an objective analytical break-down.

The Mike Tyson I’ll be using is the one who fought Michael Spinks in 1988. To refresh your memory, Mike was three days shy of his 22nd birthday, 34-0 (30), and weighed in at 218 ¼ Lbs.

The first thing people think about when the name, Mike Tyson, comes up is his punching power; but I submit that it wasn’t only his natural punching ability that made Mike as good as he was, it was a combination of talents. Mike was freakishly fast for a heavyweight, able to unload up to five punches in less than two seconds. In addition to his hand-speed and punching power, Mike had phenomenal head movement, making him extraordinarily difficult to hit while he bobbed and weaved looking for the opportunity to unload not just one; but a whole volley of power shots on his opponent.

Now, here’s the trick; obviously there were things about Mike we hadn’t learned at the time of the Spinks fight that we know now. For example, with Muhammad Ali, his peak was arguably against Cleveland Williams, since we’ll never know how good he could have been during the three years he was banned from fighting. At the time of the Williams fight, nobody knew how good Ali could take a punch because no one had really been able to hit him solid, with the obvious exceptions of Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks. It was only after we saw Ali fight in the second half of his career, that we knew he had a granite jaw. Since granite does not grow overnight and a fighter’s chin does not get better with time, we have to presume Ali could take a punch just as well at 25 as he could at 35, if not better. Cliché, though it is, hindsight is 20/20, so we might as well use it.

On November 14th, 1966, a 24 year old Muhammad Ali climbed into the ring with Clevand Williams in Houston, Texas and showed us what a complete fighter looks like: blinding speed of hand and foot and with that speed, power that belied his frame. Ali would never look so good in the ring again as he did against Williams, so that’s the Ali we’ll use. At the time, he had a record of 26-0 (21) and weighed in at a svelte 212 ¾ lbs. For those that do not know, Ali had a rapier-like jab, and had arguably the fastest hands of any heavyweight who ever lived and most assuredly the fastest feet. Ali could start throwing a punch when he was out of range and his feet would carry him in range to land the shot and out again before his opponent could get off a counter.

When the opening bell sounds, it has to be rung twice because neither fighter can hear it over the roar of the crowd. When the bout does get under way, both men rush to ring center, with Ali, at the last second sidestepping while pulling back to miss a murderous left hook. Tyson, while fast of hand, has to be within range for that hand-speed to amount to anything and Ali is quite content to keep him at the end of a blistering jab, which, to his surprise, isn’t landing as often as he’d like. The whole round consists of Tyson bobbing and weaving very quickly towards Ali, only to be alone when he gets to where Ali was just a second before.

Every time Mike gets close, he is peppered with razor-sharp jabs and rights for his efforts and has no one to get revenge on when the punches stop. At the end of the first round, Tyson motions furiously at Ali, angry that he apparently didn’t come to fight. By the third, Ali has Mike’s timing down and begins to rip in a few hooks of his own amid the jabs and rights. While nothing seems to be affecting Tyson, the points are piling up. When the bell rings for the 8th, there is a visible swelling around Mike’s left eye and he still has yet to connect with anything solid and is starting to swing wildly, lunging out of desperation and frustration at a target that is never in range.

At the start of the 10th, Mike’s right eye is also swollen with a good sized gash above the lid and his left eye is all but closed. Smelling the end, Ali suddenly plants his feet and unloads a blur of straight rights, hooks and uppercuts on a Tyson, who is totally caught off guard by this sudden offensive outburst. By the time he can fire off a counter, Ali is out of the way again. As soon as he thinks Ali’s onslaught is over, Mike’s caught with a solid double hook off the jab, which causes him to visibly wobble.

Lunging for retribution with a whistling left hook, Mike catches nothing but air and is blasted for his trouble with a surprisingly powerful right cross, which knocks him off balance into the ropes. Before he can steady himself, Tyson is caught in a blizzard of punches that seem to be coming from every conceivable angle. Again he lunges forward with an uppercut that misses and catches a solid hook for his trouble, followed by another straight right and drops to the canvas as much out of confusion as out of hurt. Mike reaches his feet at the count of eight and affirms to the referee that he wants to continue. However the ref is now looking at Mike’s right eye, from which is flowing a cascade of crimson and waves the fight off, determining Tyson can no longer see incoming shots. Mike protests to no avail.

Here's my reasoning: Mike Tyson’s career will ultimately be seen as incomplete. He never achieved his potential because something of finer quality was missing. If this weren't so, he would have had a better second career than he did....no, he'd never be able to be as good as in his youth; but it wouldn't have gone the way it did. He lost his hunger for the game in prison, Ali became famished for the sport in exile....that says something abou the drive of both men and the differences in them as men.

Once you got past the power and the extraordinary ability, there was a big gaping hole. Said hole, is why he never came back to win a fight he was behind in, said hole is why he bit off Holyfield’s ear when it became obvious to him that Evander was about to embarrass him again, and said hole is why he could never beat the game’s immortals.

Where he was empty as a fighter, Ali was overflowing with the intangible qualities of heart and will to win, or simply put….belief in one’s self. Tyson exuded arrogance and self-confidence; but I submit it was the equivalent of a scared child whistling in the graveyard, especially in the second career; a man, who had no answers when plan “A” didn’t work....as he didn't in career 1, Rooney did.

I’m not hating on Tyson. I’m calling it as I see it. In the end, Mike was an incomplete fighter and no incomplete fighter can beat a complete one.

Finis'

While this is a repeat compilation of your previous dissertations on the subject, it's still believable; although I find it a tad dramatic. I don't think that the little "extra" that was missing from Mike's heart, or the incomplete state his career was always left in automatically determines the result of this fight. I do not believe that Ali would go unblemished from this fight, even if he did win in dominating fashion. It seemed that Ali, as granite as his chin was (at least later on), was still prone to fall down from shots that could have easily been avoided by someone with his footspeed. The problem with his technique was the very fact that simply dancing or backing up are not adequate enough against another fighter with trigger fast hands.

Yarr...maybe it's not worth continuing. The incomplete state of his career, his youth and therefore lack of heart, and the pillar at which the boxing community (including myself) have placed beneath Muhammad Ali are presupposed. They are fixed items that people have assumed will dictate the flow of this battle. Since these items were not always the case--which one can see by carefully reviewing each career--we can't drop them into the bucket before deciding what else to fill it with. We have to wipe the slate clean and give each fighter their ideal scenario, taking into account their strengths, and giving fair playing ground to each of their weaknesses. Let's be real here: Ali never faced anyone who could apply pressure in the early going the way Mike did, before a defense mechanism could be placed. On the other hand, Mike probably never faced anyone who he knocked down that would get up before the ref counts to 3, and then still move with impressive fluidity.

P.S. Your description of Tyson not finding anyone home when he cuts the ring off is probably inaccurate, as this was the case for Sonny Liston. He was usually less than 1/4 step behind Clay, and Tyson scooted around the ring with greater bounce in his step than Liston did at any age. While Ali was still a tad green at this point, that was an example of him running moreso than usual to avoid Liston's bombs. I think Tyson would find Ali in those spots and make something of it. Probably not all fight long, but it might take some wind out of his sails.

Great discussion guys! Let's keep it civil.

[Brassangel]

Ali vs. Tyson I

Pre-fight poem courtesy of Ali...

"Mike Tyson ain't no champ
He's slow on his feet
If he tries to bite me
He'll see he's got nothing to eat
Cause I'm so fast
And I'm so neat
He'll swing at nothing
And then quit on his seat
I'm hitting him with lefts
I'm hitting him with rights
He's blind in both eyes
By the end of the night
After another embarassment
When he loses to me
He'll see he needs money
And sell his teeth
I'll whoop him up
I'll whoop him down
And prove once again
That I deserve the crown

I am the greatest!"

Fight 1 coming soon...

[SABBATH]

Just shut the **** up with that bull****. Its NOT funny, and you will never be funny. If you can't post like a sane person, dont bother at all.

Yo, stop being uh jerk. Theres mo' 411 on one o' ma posts than uh hundered o' yours! Brace yoself foo'! No wot I'm sayin' dawg? Don't hate the playah hate the game!

[Brassangel]

@ SABBATH: Howz abat ur quit bein a ****kicker and we gets back ta biznuss ere?

Anyway...

[SABBATH]

@ SABBATH: Howz abat ur quit bein a ****kicker and we gets back ta biznuss ere?

Anyway...

Done deal.

[LondonRingRules]

COME ON DOWN TO WHERE IT'S LEGAL TO MARRY YER FIRST COUSIN!

** Well, Tarnation, I've heard of flying pigs, but ain't never heard of no piggy pinhaids. Yup, you just come on down to Muleshoe. We gots a Hog Hotel where's you can stay gratis, the slop is free, and plenty of Miss Piggys are already squealin' for ya. Come on down!

[Frazier's 15th round]

Tyson KO1 Ali. The myth of Ali has been blown so far out of proportion. Ali never really beat anyone special in his career. Foreman was a caveman who anyone could beat simply by staying out of his pathetic swings. Frazier was fat and more concerned with music after he starched Ali the first time, and yet he still deserved the decision in fight two and nearly killed Ali in fight 3. Norton won all 3 times, even Ali admits that. Ali also got lucky breaks and gift decisions over Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Doug Jones, Sonny Banks, Earnie Shavers (no skills at all), Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks. Tomato can Chuck Wepner nearly knocked Ali out! A motivated Sonny Liston would have dusted off Clay in about 4 rounds. Finally, when paired up with a much better fighter in Larry Holmes, Ali was battered and beaten all over the place until he quit in his corner.

[K-DOGG]

Tyson KO1 Ali. The myth of Ali has been blown so far out of proportion. Ali never really beat anyone special in his career. Foreman was a caveman who anyone could beat simply by staying out of his pathetic swings. Frazier was fat and more concerned with music after he starched Ali the first time, and yet he still deserved the decision in fight two and nearly killed Ali in fight 3. Norton won all 3 times, even Ali admits that. Ali also got lucky breaks and gift decisions over Henry Cooper, Zora Folley, Doug Jones, Sonny Banks, Earnie Shavers (no skills at all), Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, and Leon Spinks. Tomato can Chuck Wepner nearly knocked Ali out! A motivated Sonny Liston would have dusted off Clay in about 4 rounds. Finally, when paired up with a much better fighter in Larry Holmes, Ali was battered and beaten all over the place until he quit in his corner.