Ali vs. Tyson: out on a fragile limb.

[Heckler]

THEN LIST THEM AND JUSTIFY IT.... MANY... **** in that case there better be atleast 5. And 'Junior'?... is that right 'gramps'. I don't care how old you are, how long you have been watching and analyzing boxing for because it doesn't make your views any more valid.

[SABBATH]

** Tyson was bigger, stronger, faster, and had a more varied attack with both hands and better defense, so, no, few do believe you.

Frazier was a superior in-fighter, superior body puncher, threw more punches, carried his power into the later rounds, and was much better at cutting off the ring and trapping and keeping opponents pinned on the ropes. Frazier was also both mentally and physically tougher.

I'm not surprised you were educated in the same state that granted Anna Nicole Smith a high school diploma.

[LondonRingRules]

Frazier was a superior in-fighter, superior body puncher, threw more punches, carried his power into the later rounds, and was much better at cutting off the ring and trapping and keeping opponents pinned on the ropes. Frazier was also both mentally and physically tougher.

I'm not surprised you were educated in the same state that granted Anna Nicole Smith a high school diploma.

** I'm not surprised you ain't figured out the great state of Texas could care less about what you think.

Obviously you need a smoke screen to cover up whatever hellhole you hide in. IBRO ranked Tyson 13th and Frazier 10th all time, so there ain't much difference between them. In a couple years from now the positions change, and at any rate the whole thing is a subjective beauty contest. Tyson could have retired at age 23 and would be widely regarded as the best ever.

Joe beat a better fighter than Tyson ever did. That's it. Max Schmeling beat a better fighter in Joe Louis than Frazier ever did, so that's hardly the basis for rating a prime Max over Joe or saying he'd have any chance against a prime Frazier.

Tyson had as many career bouts at age 23 as Joe finished his career with, 37, plus Tyson was undefeated with one more KO than Joe finished with victories, 33 KOs compared to 32 wins. All that by age 23 compared to Joe's entire career! Joe may have been the first to beat Ali, but Tyson was the ONLY fighter to ever knock down, KO, and beat Spinks and the ONLY fighter to ever KO Holmes and the ease in the way he brutalized them remains unchallenged to this day.

Facts: Tyson is bigger, stronger, faster, better defense, better overall power with both hands and more versatile offense at his best to best. Frazier might be tougher, but not any tougher than Tex Cobb who I'm sure floats your dress for you on cross days!

[Mr. Ryan]

Prime Ali would box Tyson silly and keep him on the end of his jab all night and land hard right hands and hold him on the inside when Tyson tried to come in and do damage. Past prime Ali, the one that fought Norton and Frazier, would've had the fight of his life on any night against Tyson. Tyson would've been in his chest throwing body shots while Ali coasted on the ropes trying to regroup. That would be 15 rounds of absolute hell for Muhammad Ali.

[SABBATH]

** Tyson had as many career bouts at age 23 as Joe finished his career with, 37, plus Tyson was undefeated with one more KO than Joe finished with victories, 33 KOs compared to 32 wins. All that by age 23 compared to Joe's entire career! Joe may have been the first to beat Ali, but Tyson was the ONLY fighter to ever knock down, KO, and beat Spinks and the ONLY fighter to ever KO Holmes and the ease in the way he brutalized them remains unchallenged to this day.

You sho' is one big dumb Texan aint ya boy! Dang, me and you is fixin' to go to fist city!

Frazier was fighting tough ranked fighters (Bonevena) in his 12th fight while Tyson continued to feast on tomato cans and build his confidence and reputation for 27 fights against mainly walking corpses who shared 268 KO losses between them.

Frazier was a street tough and hardened fighter with a warrior's mentality. Not a mentally weak, insecure bully who had to be coaxed into fighting when he'd break down and cry before amateur fights like Tyson used to.

Having to compare Tyson's victories over light-heavyweight Spinks and 39 year old retired Holmes to Joe's win over Ali just shows how pathetic and weak your argument is.

You want to credit Tyson with stopping Holmes? Then give credit to Danny Williams, Lennox Lewis, Evander Holyfield and of course Buster Douglas all who KO'd a Tyson that was younger than the inactive Holmes was, while Tyson was the same age as Holmes when he was stopped by Kevin McBride.

Frazier was only beaten by Ali and Foreman both after his prime (68-71) two top 10 ATG heavyweights, while Tyson was destroyed by journeyman Buster Douglas while he was 23 years old undefeated and in his prime.

There's only one opponent on Frazier's ledger he didn't beat unlike Tyson who has 5.

Give it up Redneck. Next time I'm in your state and I need a urinal, I'll head down to the Alamo and make like my Avetar did.

Have a nice day and don't forget to brush your tooth.

[LondonRingRules]

You sho' is one big dumb Texan aint ya boy! Dang, me and you is fixin' to go to fist city!

Frazier was fighting tough ranked fighters (Bonevena) in his 12th fight while Tyson continued to feast on tomato cans and build his confidence and reputation for 27 fights against mainly walking corpses who shared 268 KO losses between them.

** Wow, didn't know an Ozzy-wanna be would know anything about personal hygiene. No doubt your brush does double duty at both ends.

Frazier faced another young prospect in Oscar who had been upgraded with a win over Chuvalo. Frazier was lucky to win that fight which was in his 2nd year of boxing, being knocked down twice and on the ropes.

In Tyson's 2nd year of boxing, besides many others, he also beat Ferguson, Zouski, Tillis, Green, Marvis Frazier, Ribalta, all but 2 KOed early. Then he brutalizes Berbick in 3rds for his title. There is no way Frazier had a better 2nd year than Tyson except in a drug addled OzzyWorld.

Keep blowin' the crack out of both ends OzBoy.

[SABBATH]

Frazier faced another young prospect in Oscar who had been upgraded with a win over Chuvalo. Frazier was lucky to win that fight which was in his 2nd year of boxing, being knocked down twice and on the ropes.

In Tyson's 2nd year of boxing, besides many others, he also beat Ferguson, Zouski, Tillis, Green, Marvis Frazier, Ribalta, all but 2 KOed early. Then he brutalizes Berbick in 3rds for his title. There is no way Frazier had a better 2nd year than Tyson except in a drug addled OzzyWorld.

Dag gumitt Gatemouth, now I know you must have an engine block in your front yard and a couch on yer dang front porch. Y'all say howdy to yer wife/cousin fer me too down 'ere in that ol' trailer park of yers!

Frazier was put in against Bonevena because his management wanted him tested, to give him some adversity which in turn would make him a better fighter and stronger mentally. See now, that's what you a critical step in developing a fighter.

Frazier faced a tough opponent who knocked him down and Joe responded by getting off the floor and winning the fight. Don't recall that 'ol yankee boy from The Catskills ever doin' that now can ya? Maybe if that dang 'ol yankee boy hadn't had his confidence inflated fightin' so many stiffs and got tested a little more early in his career, he wouldn't have folded like a Mule Shoe welfare cheque when he finally fought an opponent who stood up to him.

Come to think of it, maybe the same thing applies to that big ol' boy from Marshall that got his ass whooped over there in Kinshasa by that Clay feller'.

In Evander Holyfield's 12th fight he was matched with Dwight Quawi a skilled, tough, hardened and seasoned champion. In his second year as a pro, Holyfield dug deep and won a decision over 15 tough rounds. This is called putting your protege to the test early in his career and not being fearful of losing. It's also called developing a fighter. Holyfield passed the test and went on to dig deep many times throughout his career.

Shoot, I reckon if ya done yer learnin' ya would a known all that.....

[Brassangel]

SABBATH and LondonRingRules have done exactly what I was saying this thread should NOT turn into...yikes!

Both have keenly twisted facts and observations like a crafty politician to make it sound as though their analyses of Tyson (and, for some reason, Frazier) are correct.

On the flip side of your coin, SABBATH, fighting a lot of fighters continuously, no matter what level they are gives a fighter confidence where they might not have had it before, and gives them a ring-readiness they may not have already had. Especially when your protege is a 19-year-old kid.

The real truth is, Ali vs. Tyson would be a matchup decided by when we catch each fighter. Niether fighter really got to showcase their true primes due to various circumstances. Ali made a much better comeback for himself, however, where Tyson lost the desire to fight.

And on a side note, Tyson wasn't stopped by McBride, he quit. While that doesn't make Mike any better in this situation, one should be reminded that he was winning on the cards. And he was 39 years old.

Side note #2: A fighter's statement about whether or not they believe they could take another fighter from a different era doesn't prove anything: that's exactly what I was trying to say, Heckler. The same applies to what Rooney felt about Tyson vs. Ali. Niether Ali's respectful comments (or disrespectful ones), nor Rooney's quote about his fighter losing to Ali hold any water. Since Rooney's quote was used earlier as a "see, I told you!" to defend Ali over Tyson, I figured I would list an example where the Lip himself said otherwise on one occassion. It's not as a counterpoint, but rather, an equilibrium of irrelevence if you will.

[LondonRingRules]

Dag gumitt Gatemouth, now I know you must have an engine block in your front yard and a couch on yer dang front porch. Y'all say howdy to yer wife/cousin fer me too down 'ere in that ol' trailer park of yers!

Frazier was put in against Bonevena because his management wanted him tested, to give him some adversity which in turn would make him a better fighter and stronger mentally. See now, that's what you a critical step in developing a fighter.

** Yeah, Joe was tested alright and found out he needed to up his game. Tyson wasn't tested at all. No need to develop him, he'd already arrived and beat up everyone until he had a heavyweight title in his 2nd year. Ali didn't do that, nor Frazier, nor Dempsey, nor Louis, nor Rocky, nor Lewis nor Holy.

I'd tell you to study up, but you've misplaced your oxycontin again, maybe hidden in your old crackpipe or maybe you just forgot that you use the suppository drug delivery system!

[SABBATH]

Yeah, Joe was tested alright and found out he needed to up his game. Tyson wasn't tested at all. No need to develop him, he'd already arrived and beat up everyone until he had a heavyweight title in his 2nd year. Ali didn't do that, nor Frazier, nor Dempsey, nor Louis, nor Rocky, nor Lewis nor Holy.

Y'all one of them dim witted fellers ain't ya?

No need to develop that 'ol Yankee boy from the Catskills. He done real good against that there Douglas feller when a little mobility and some punchin' back from an average heavyweight done the 'ol trick any old how.

Dang Yankee never did figure out how to dig deep. Y'see cowpoke, that feller from the Catskills never did no learnin' on how do y'all say "a little adversity?"

I heard there was a boy by the name of Wilfred Benitez or sumthin'. Won a junior-welter title at 17 years of age against a hall of famer. Well I'll be a horned tooth jackass. He musta been better than that there Sugar Ray Robinson feller'!

Im just gald them fine taxpayers down in 'ol Muleshoe been puttin' money inta programs that allow the mentally disabled to learn a few computer skills.

Y'all type alright usin just yer thumbs country boy.


COME ON DOWN TO WHERE IT'S LEGAL TO MARRY YER FIRST COUSIN!