question about Ali

[butterfly1964]

Well i've heard guys like Butterfly1964 talk about how Ali was prime in 1967, or atleast it was the beginning of his prime. Then he got laid off for 3 years. When he came back he had physically matured, but in return (supposedly) he had lost alot of his skills, speed wise. Now I'm talking right when he came back now.

I watched the Jerry Quarry fight today and something occured to me, Ali really didn't look to different, Alittle bigger (alittle more fat and more muscle) but overall he only looked alittle slower. His handspeed i suppose was brought down alittle to about alittle over an average fighters,but he was still fast. His footwork wasn't as on key as he was orginally but it was still good. It actually reminded me of Holmes. on his toes moving, but stopping and going flat foot to get the punch power in. The only thing noticabley less was his head movement, but even still it was there.

After the fight he said he was a better fighter, granted figthers tend to say there alwasy in the best shape of their life. So what i'm really asking is, Was Ali really that different after his layoff. Because up until alittle later after his comeback he seemed normal. It was only later with the Rope-a-dope that its clear Ali is different (to me anyhow).

So was Ali really that different after his layoff?


(if i'm misquoting anybody then pls ignore the thread. I'm just wondering)

i think in '70 his handspeed was about the same as in the 60s, but the footspeed and the headmovement decreased quite a bit. george chuvalo and i belive floyd patterson was asked on how good ali was in the 60s and in the 70s, and if he was a different fighter in the 70s. both of these men are the only ones who fought ali in the 60s and the 70s, so they would know if ali was a lesser fighter or not, and they both said he was not same fighter he was in '65-66. chuvalo in particular said that in their second fight in '72, ali would go flatfooted more often, and the intervals between dancing was greater than when they fought in '66. he would rest more and then dance in short spurts, unlike in 1966, where he would dance many times for a whole round. so he was somewhat slower in the 70s, but if you don't take my word for it, then just ask floyd patterosn and george chuvalo.

[Brassangel]

His hand speed was still quick, but a little less accurate due to off time; his footspeed was quick, but he couldn't keep it up quite as long; his head movement reduced since he actually started holding his hands up a little more often. I think that saying he was about 80%-90% of his formal self is pretty accurate. But then again, he was still an incredible fighter, just a little different.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

i think in '70 his handspeed was about the same as in the 60s, but the footspeed and the headmovement decreased quite a bit. george chuvalo and i belive floyd patterson was asked on how good ali was in the 60s and in the 70s, and if he was a different fighter in the 70s. both of these men are the only ones who fought ali in the 60s and the 70s, so they would know if ali was a lesser fighter or not, and they both said he was not same fighter he was in '65-66. chuvalo in particular said that in their second fight in '72, ali would go flatfooted more often, and the intervals between dancing was greater than when they fought in '66. he would rest more and then dance in short spurts, unlike in 1966, where he would dance many times for a whole round. so he was somewhat slower in the 70s, but if you don't take my word for it, then just ask floyd patterosn and george chuvalo.

yea thats why i said it reminded me of Larry Holmes because Holmes used to dance alot but as i recall he'd also go flat footed quite a bit

[sookyjumps]

you also have to consider mental factors too. theres no way that stress, media pressure, anticipation, and ali's own pride didnt factor in to how he came back.

[Heckler]

Him fighting Norton is a good example of how his layoff exposed his flaws. Norton didn't win because he was tremendously powerful or skilled, but because he was an arkward fighter that parried the jab and was able to throw his own straight down the pipe. Pre Lay-off Ali if someone threw a jab at him he was able to make slight headmovements and with his brilliant judgement of range was able to make a man miss. When he come back his judgement of range was just as good he just couldn't get out of the way of those jabs, his body wouldn't respond like it use to... no longer could he merely move his head a few inches or glide out of harms way. Once he lost that ability to move fluidly and use such headmovement it became apparent he had no conventional defense.

[Monsi]

Angelo Dundee said that the pre-layoff Ali was a better fighter than the Ali who fought after the ban.

[butterfly1964]

Angelo Dundee said that the pre-layoff Ali was a better fighter than the Ali who fought after the ban.

well, that's obvious.

[butterfly1964]

Not that Ali was ever any real good.

he'd still beat your boy marciano.

[QueensburyRules]

Ali's KO's in the 60's depended alot on his speed as well as timing, two things that were diminished post-exile, so his KO ability wasn't what it was. Ali also had bad hands in the 70's and didn't load as much on his punches as he could have unless the opponent was dangerous in which case he didn't have a choice.

In Ali's 12 round decision win over Rudi Lubbers Ali was saving his hands for the upcoming rematch with Frazier and clearly didn't load his punches. I read that Ali considered Lubbers his worst opponent saying , "the man didn't show me nuthin' "

- -Except the lowly Lubbers about the stature of Frazier was fair thee well whoopin' his pants off at times.

We're talking mid Euro level fighter at least durable enough to give Ali rounds that he needed.

All this hogwash about Ali at 28 at the height of athletic prime just silly boy fantasia. His 1st go he had grade B challengers greatly enhanced by his dubious Liston wins.

Look to win he has to fight a prime peer in Terrell that was club fighter sloppy for 5 rds until Terrell scratched his eye when Ali shoved his face into the ropes.

At that point he had a wounded fighter that Ali got so tired he had to back off trying to Ko him to spend the duration pot shotting him while spewing a bunch of wwe garbage.

That was not brokeback Floyd or tiny, bleeding Brits Cooper/London.

When he fought Chuvalo he had a tough time in his prime foreshadowing what Joe was gonna do to him.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Except the lowly Lubbers about the stature of Frazier was fair thee well whoopin' his pants off at times.

We're talking mid Euro level fighter at least durable enough to give Ali rounds that he needed.

All this hogwash about Ali at 28 at the height of athletic prime just silly boy fantasia. His 1st go he had grade B challengers greatly enhanced by his dubious Liston wins.

Look to win he has to fight a prime peer in Terrell that was club fighter sloppy for 5 rds until Terrell scratched his eye when Ali shoved his face into the ropes.

At that point he had a wounded fighter that Ali got so tired he had to back off trying to Ko him to spend the duration pot shotting him while spewing a bunch of wwe garbage.

That was not brokeback Floyd or tiny, bleeding Brits Cooper/London.

When he fought Chuvalo he had a tough time in his prime foreshadowing what Joe was gonna do to him.

Nailed it.

Ali fans try to argue his first iteration was the better because that is when he was undefeated. They try to argue that the late 60's would have been his best years because it's an assertion that can't be proven wrong.

the funny thing is, going into exile did Ali waaaay more favors than harm: he basically dodged Joe Frazier in his prime.

The real question isn't how good would Ali have been in his "best" years, the question is would he have survived Frazier? Seems unlikely. And that is an opinion that can be substantiated by fact.