Rocky Marciano is not a top ten all time heavyweight and I'll tell you why

[The Old LefHook]

don't we get this thread every few months?

Yes, we do. But I have now met all arguments with an irresistible force. That Rocky could melt off eight pounds and become the greatest light heavyweight in history. No one at light heavyweight could withstand him, and he would lose nothing in terms of power and stamina. Rocky is an immovable object at light heavyweight where he belongs, easily crushing the division's greatest brawlers, and likely to run down its greatest runners.

[soul_survivor]

Yes, we do. But I have now met all arguments with an irresistible force. That Rocky could melt off eight pounds and become the greatest light heavyweight in history. No one at light heavyweight could withstand him, and he would lose nothing in terms of power and stamina. Rocky is an immovable object at light heavyweight where he belongs, easily crushing the division's greatest brawlers, and likely to run down its greatest runners.

I don't know about that. Moore or Charles at LHW? Spinks? I don't see it.

But at hw, where his legacy is, Marciano did the best the times offered him. Maybe he should have stuck around for Patterson but Marcianos back was wrecked so that was unlikely. If he had done and stretched his title reign into a new era, like Ali did, we may be rating Marciano even higher.

[The Old LefHook]

I don't know about that. Moore or Charles at LHW? Spinks? I don't see it.

But at hw, where his legacy is, Marciano did the best the times offered him. Maybe he should have stuck around for Patterson but Marcianos back was wrecked so that was unlikely. If he had done and stretched his title reign into a new era, like Ali did, we may be rating Marciano even higher.

I do not see Moore, Charles or Spinks presenting obstacles he cannot overcome. I have explained earlier why I do not think Spinks could beat Marciano at light heavyweight. Jersey Joe punched harder than all three of them, as did Louis. The problem for them: none of them is a real runner. Marciano walks through them IMO.

If his legacy is at hw, I do not see any of these guys taking his title away. Marciano fought much closer to the light heavyweight limit than he did to the modern heavyweight average. Mythically, I think that is where he belongs, to bring his true P4P prowess into perspective.

[soul_survivor]

I do not see Moore, Charles or Spinks presenting obstacles he cannot overcome. I have explained earlier why I do not think Spinks could beat Marciano at light heavyweight. Jersey Joe punched harder than all three of them, as did Louis. The problem for them: none of them is a real runner. Marciano walks through them IMO.

If his legacy is at hw, I do not see any of these guys taking his title away. Marciano fought much closer to the light heavyweight limit than he did to the modern heavyweight average. Mythically, I think that is where he belongs, to bring his true P4P prowess into perspective.

You can't pick and choose division. Marciano was a heavyweight, regardless of what the modern boundaries are.

And you don't have to be a runner, Marciano is there to be outboxed and was almost always outboxed, he just had that punch, I'm not sure how that punch works at a much lighter weight. Losing 11-12lbs of muscle and fat would not help him. Someone like Spinks would tag him a heck of a lot and cut him up. Moore could do the same.

Not saying Marciano can't win, just saying it's not so clear.

[The Old LefHook]

You can't pick and choose division. Marciano was a heavyweight, regardless of what the modern boundaries are.

And you don't have to be a runner, Marciano is there to be outboxed and was almost always outboxed, he just had that punch, I'm not sure how that punch works at a much lighter weight. Losing 11-12lbs of muscle and fat would not help him. Someone like Spinks would tag him a heck of a lot and cut him up. Moore could do the same.

Not saying Marciano can't win, just saying it's not so clear.

You can pick and choose divisions. Making Marciano a cruiserweight for mythical considerations is entirely natural. The light heavyweight Marciano is a resasonable possibility, as well. The weight cut would mostly be water weight, that is why we have something called rehydration that boxers do instead of muscle regeneration.

If we insisted on comparing Willie Pep to middleweights because his 126 pound division used to be called middleweight but was changed to featherweight, that would be stupid. He should be compared to other 126 pound men, not to men who outweigh him by 50 lbs. of muscle (Ha! Ha!) because of stubborn insistence on outdated nomenclature.

Realistically, what was Marciano in terms of boxing as we know it today? He was a rugged and fearless brawler who was naturally a light-ish cruiserweight. Today his handlers would prefer to melt him down early in his career when he could still make light heavyweight easily, where he would be a terror. As he filled out, he would begin fighting at cruiserweight more. Given his size restrictions, he might never have a heavyweight fight in today's environment. That is all entirely reasonable.

You mention Charles, but light heavyweight is his rightful place, too. Good as Charles was, I think I know the reasonable outcome of Charles versus Ibeabuchi. Ezzard needs to be considered against the likes of Rocky, other great light heavies, and possibly Dempsey, who was an upwardly mobile natural cruiserweight, because of his height, instead of a downwardly mobile one like the Rock.

[Yodpayak]

1 applies to most guys on your list, 2 is entirely subjective, 3 4 ane 5 make no sense as he was fighting the best guys available. They were not considered great because they either lost to him or lost to someone else who lost to him.

Best HWs:
1. Joe Louis
2. Max Schmeling
3. Wlad
4. Vitali
5. that muhamad guy who ducked the Viet Cong
6. Marciano

Dont really care past 6.

[juggernaut666]

So after all that BS the answer is no?
You talk smack but refuse to back it up, lil' b*t@h!!
The forums proven LIAR! :*******: juggynutz nice new cartoon pic sonny!


My last fishing trip of the season boys, hoping for a Tarpon who hung behind
and thinks he's a heavyweight.

Weekend on the water and a test of strategy and strength is always fun.

Ray

So if i get someone PRO boxers to sighn on boxing scene to collaborate my stories you will will leave correct?

And of LIARS ... well that would be you plagurizing Kevin Rooneys comments of the Tyson/Lewis sparring match thayt you were NOT at!

[therealpugilist]

Spinks won the Gold Medal at Middleweight but that limit was 165 not 160!
There was another man at Light heavy named Leon who he wasn't going to mess with.
Also Spinks had a rough time with short fighters who knew how to punch while maintaining their pressure style and head movement. Marciano would be a difficult opponent for Spinks. Qawi gave Spinks a great fight and Qawi didn't punch like Marciano could.
Marciano was 5'11 and when you consider the fact that fighter trained their weight down to be able to maintain a high punch rate over 15 rounds he could easily hold 195lbs.
It would be a very intriguing match up because Mike was a good puncher and one of the best Light Heavy Champs in history.

Ray

Qawi also was much better defensively than Rocky and was a better combination puncher, i think his reach was longer, and could counter punch very well. 2 totally different styles.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You can pick and choose divisions. Making Marciano a cruiserweight for mythical considerations is entirely natural. The light heavyweight Marciano is a resasonable possibility, as well. The weight cut would mostly be water weight, that is why we have something called rehydration that boxers do instead of muscle regeneration.

If we insisted on comparing Willie Pep to middleweights because his 126 pound division used to be called middleweight but was changed to featherweight, that would be stupid. He should be compared to other 126 pound men, not to men who outweigh him by 50 lbs. of muscle (Ha! Ha!) because of stubborn insistence on outdated nomenclature.

Realistically, what was Marciano in terms of boxing as we know it today? He was a rugged and fearless brawler who was naturally a light-ish cruiserweight. Today his handlers would prefer to melt him down early in his career when he could still make light heavyweight easily, where he would be a terror. As he filled out, he would begin fighting at cruiserweight more. Given his size restrictions, he might never have a heavyweight fight in today's environment. That is all entirely reasonable.

You mention Charles, but light heavyweight is his rightful place, too. Good as Charles was, I think I know the reasonable outcome of Charles versus Ibeabuchi. Ezzard needs to be considered against the likes of Rocky, other great light heavies, and possibly Dempsey, who was an upwardly mobile natural cruiserweight, because of his height, instead of a downwardly mobile one like the Rock.

I think today with the 12 round limits, Marciano would be heavier much closer to 200-210 and have a higher punch output per round. He would be much more ferocious as some like to say he broke down his opponents rather than have that 1 punch ko power. He would have broke people down way faster today.

I think Charles could have been a much higher regarded Heavyweight if he hadn't fought as cautiously. Like it or not there is no denying that the Baroudi fight took something out of Charles. Just look at his fights before and after that bout.

[The Old LefHook]

I think today with the 12 round limits, Marciano would be heavier much closer to 200-210 and have a higher punch output per round. He would be much more ferocious as some like to say he broke down his opponents rather than have that 1 punch ko power. He would have broke people down way faster today.

I think Charles could have been a much higher regarded Heavyweight if he hadn't fought as cautiously. Like it or not there is no denying that the Baroudi fight took something out of Charles. Just look at his fights before and after that bout.

The place where I think he does most superbly is fighting men of the same natural weight as himself, without adding a bunch of pounds of unknown effect. These guys happen to be light heavyweights and cruiserweights. I think he proved himself beyond a doubt in this weight range as an all time force to be reckoned with. Dempsey, Tunney and Marciano would dominate such a tournament IMO. Langford might object to that prediction.