the final word on who wins...a grappler versus a boxer

[billeau2]

There will never be a final word on it. I will say that the grappler/wrestler has one huge advantage starting out. Their game is to grab you basically, just simply to get a hold of you i.e. once they have a gold of you, it's their world. They don't have to land a punch, they don't even have to throw a punch. All they have to do is shoot in and grab you. That's a lot easier than to land accurate, damaging punches to someone's vigorously moving head as they shoot in to grab you.

What makes that an advantage is that it's a hell of a lot easier to simply get in and grab a hold of someone, especially if it's a big part of your training to do it with effectiveness, defense, speed, power and skill, than it is to land punches on someone shooting in to grab you.

There seems to be a really bizarre myth going around, usually on boxing sites of course by people that have clearly never tried this stuff or even had to throw punches at someone, that all you have to do is step back or to the side and then land a punch on them as they move in and it's game over. Oh that it were so easy!

It's hilarious how often you see that argument though.

Think about this way...how often does a boxer land a KO punch to an opponent that's simply moving in? It's rare and that's to a guy that's also looking to throw punches himself and is often open, with his head up etc, rather than just get in close to grab you and shooting in, head down, arms up and focused on defense.

How easy does Wlad seem to be able to just slide in and clinch/hug his opponents?

It's incredibly difficult to time a step back and land a clean, accurate punch on someone moving in and anyone with real experience knows this very well. We're talking pros usually, but it's even harder for most people that haven't the first idea about effective, evasive footwork. It's even harder to do that when that same person can duck their head right down low and shoot in at you, whether it's set up with some kind of feint or whether it's done by timing a punch and going under it. They train this stuff as much as boxers train their jab.

The biggest thing people seem to forget is that to be able to punch someone hard, you have to be close enough that they can grab you too and it's a hell of a lot easier to simply grab someone than it is to land clean, accurate, damaging head shots.

So what Benny posted can turn this thread into a somewhat constructive enterprise if we consider...not so much the measure of when grappler's competed against boxers, something which has been documented at least since the mid 1800's in Europe and America, but rather how this contest is contexualized. In other words...someone has to sit down and make some rules and what we saw with the Ali and Wepner affair was a digression... probably because despite the fact that both wrestlers (Andre and Inouki) were accomplished, the rules made the match absurd.

But why? again, there have been competitions documented where some ground rules were followed and a decent match happened. In Hawai during the 1920s Henry Okazaki, the founder of Danzen Ryu, which has some roots in Kodokan Judo, a very respectable martial arts pedigree, engaged in challenge matches with boxers. There were mixed results, these matches also included catch wrestlers. When servicemen came back from peacetime Japan there were reports of "the little Japs clearing a bar full of rowdies with strikes done with the side of the hand and throwing people around the joint." This included eye witness testimony of one small Japanese policema n leading up to 3 rowdies out...sans handcuffs, instead in a joint lock.

Prior to that time, the japanese xenophobia was evident in books, co authored by writers like E.J Harris who were impressed with Jiu Jitsu and acted much like a carnival barker... many of these practicioners would come to small town America and have an open challenge to any boxer, or wrestler who would accept.

So there is a long history of these contests vacillating between respectability and absurdity. There is no question that when Ali and Wepner were involved in the shenanigans which ensued...this was not, and was never supposed to be, about a grappler versus a striker. Inouki's solution to fighting Ali was absurd.

Now if one were to assume that there was renaissance of this need to test the primacy of grappling versus striking... there are tapes of Bruce Lee and none other than Count Dante John Keehan...who was at one time a top student of Robert Trias, who was a founding pioneer of karate in the United States, both fighting against wrestlers, grapplers. Judo Gene LeBell fought many strikers for years, both as a wrestler and as a Judoka.

So there you have it....The patent absurdity of the Inouki Ali fiasco.

There is a whole other situation regarding the emergence of the UFC but thats a whole other situation to deconstruct.

[Anthony342]

There will never be a final word on it. I will say that the grappler/wrestler has one huge advantage starting out. Their game is to grab you basically, just simply to get a hold of you i.e. once they have a gold of you, it's their world. They don't have to land a punch, they don't even have to throw a punch. All they have to do is shoot in and grab you. That's a lot easier than to land accurate, damaging punches to someone's vigorously moving head as they shoot in to grab you.

What makes that an advantage is that it's a hell of a lot easier to simply get in and grab a hold of someone, especially if it's a big part of your training to do it with effectiveness, defense, speed, power and skill, than it is to land punches on someone shooting in to grab you.

There seems to be a really bizarre myth going around, usually on boxing sites of course by people that have clearly never tried this stuff or even had to throw punches at someone, that all you have to do is step back or to the side and then land a punch on them as they move in and it's game over. Oh that it were so easy!

It's hilarious how often you see that argument though.

Think about this way...how often does a boxer land a KO punch to an opponent that's simply moving in? It's rare and that's to a guy that's also looking to throw punches himself and is often open, with his head up etc, rather than just get in close to grab you and shooting in, head down, arms up and focused on defense.

How easy does Wlad seem to be able to just slide in and clinch/hug his opponents?

It's incredibly difficult to time a step back and land a clean, accurate punch on someone moving in and anyone with real experience knows this very well. We're talking pros usually, but it's even harder for most people that haven't the first idea about effective, evasive footwork. It's even harder to do that when that same person can duck their head right down low and shoot in at you, whether it's set up with some kind of feint or whether it's done by timing a punch and going under it. They train this stuff as much as boxers train their jab.

The biggest thing people seem to forget is that to be able to punch someone hard, you have to be close enough that they can grab you too and it's a hell of a lot easier to simply grab someone than it is to land clean, accurate, damaging head shots.

Not able to give green k right now, but excellent analysis and I totally agree. It just depends on which fighters are involved in the fight.