Roy Jones Jr's alleged "weak opposition"

[robertzimmerman]

soul_survivor,

I didn't just say the criteria was Jones having to fight prime ATGs and that's it, that I'm not willing, as a boxing fan to accept anything else. I understand, needs must BUT I also mentioned Dariusz, instead Jones faced the guy who lost to Dariusz. And then, where's the leading fighters of his day, at his weight, wheres Eubank and Benn and Collins? At least one of them would have done. Then, where's the Hopkins rematch?

Why don't you go and read my previous posts?

Roy was well within his rights to not want to go to Germany with all three of the main belts.

Dariusz had no intention of going to the U.S. to fight Roy. Go and look at his resume. He was only content to defend his WBO in Germany.

Chris Eubank was only content to defend his WBO belt in Europe. He admitted so on numerous occasions. He also said that fighting Roy and Toney at SMW when they were in their prime, would have been suicide.

Bernard Hopkins did not want to fight Roy in 2002 at a CW. He then spent a year out of the ring before coming back to fight Morrade Hakkar.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...es-hopkins.htm

Benn and Collins were the only guys from your list who wanted to fight Roy.

A Benn fight was hard to make because Roy's handlers, The Levin's, wouldn't give Don King future options on Roy.

When Roy couldn't fight Benn or Liles to unify the SMW division, he went up to LHW for a new challenge, and Collins and his lightly regarded WBO belt got left behind.

Also, Liles turned down his biggest payday to fight Roy. His own manager confirmed it and he was extremely angry with him because he thought he had the beating of Roy.

Like I originally said, Jones, when his career wound down and HBO weren't willing to pay him to fight bums, started fighting tests or traveling aaaand rematching Hopkins.

He fought on HBO over 25 times.

Serious efforts were made on their part to try and land Dariusz and Hopkins on the network.

Yes, when he was older he travelled. That's obviously because his circumstances had changed at that point. He was no longer the Champ. So he had to make concessions that he'd never had to make before.

And again, you're wrong because the true upper echelons always have some greats or worthy fighters on their resume, you can normally make a longer list of top guys (not just ATGs) they fought than top guys they DIDN'T fight but that's not true of Jones.

Everyones circumstances are different.

Roy consistently fought top ten ranked opposition, who were either: champions, former champions, or who'd go on to become future champions.

Are you telling me that Roy had hardly any worthy fighters on his resume?

Edit: I just realised I replied to a guy calling himself Robert Zimmerman. Ok, this "discussion" is over.

Mr. Observant.

I'm a huge fan of Bob Dylan's.

What's the issue exactly?

[robertzimmerman]

You just said yes, you think he is the fighter of the 90s and then you're mentioning names I put forward as better. What's your criteria? How flashy a fighter looked in sparring matches? Or how much HBO paid them? Because by any true boxing standards, Jones is not the fighter of the decade.

I'm not putting him down, he was good, possibly top 10 in the decade and the achievement of winning a heavyweight title rounds out his post 90s career very well but there literally can't be a justification for facing the names he did and avoiding the names he did, for a fighter who is considered, by most in the sport, as great.

He didn't avoid fighters.

Can you not read?

[IronDanHamza]

soul_survivor,



Why don't you go and read my previous posts?

Roy was well within his rights to not want to go to Germany with all three of the main belts.

Dariusz had no intention of going to the U.S. to fight Roy. Go and look at his resume. He was only content to defend his WBO in Germany.

Chris Eubank was only content to defend his WBO belt in Europe. He admitted so on numerous occasions. He also said that fighting Roy and Toney at SMW when they were in their prime, would have been suicide.

Bernard Hopkins did not want to fight Roy in 2002 at a CW. He then spent a year out of the ring before coming back to fight Morrade Hakkar.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sport...es-hopkins.htm

Benn and Collins were the only guys from your list who wanted to fight Roy.

A Benn fight was hard to make because Roy's handlers, The Levin's, wouldn't give Don King future options on Roy.

When Roy couldn't fight Benn or Liles to unify the SMW division, he went up to LHW for a new challenge, and Collins and his lightly regarded WBO belt got left behind.

Also, Liles turned down his biggest payday to fight Roy. His own manager confirmed it and he was extremely angry with him because he thought he had the beating of Roy.



He fought on HBO over 25 times.

Serious efforts were made on their part to try and land Dariusz and Hopkins on the network.

Yes, when he was older he travelled. That's obviously because his circumstances had changed at that point. He was no longer the Champ. So he had to make concessions that he'd never had to make before.



Everyones circumstances are different.

Roy consistently fought top ten ranked opposition, who were either: champions, former champions, or who'd go on to become future champions.

Are you telling me that Roy had hardly any worthy fighters on his resume?



Mr. Observant.

I'm a huge fan of Bob Dylan's.

What's the issue exactly?

The guys a child.

He somehow sees the name "RobertZimmerman" as something to be made fun of.

Tell tale sign that he can't debate with you.

[IronDanHamza]

You just said yes, you think he is the fighter of the 90s and then you're mentioning names I put forward as better. What's your criteria? How flashy a fighter looked in sparring matches? Or how much HBO paid them? Because by any true boxing standards, Jones is not the fighter of the decade.

I'm not putting him down, he was good, possibly top 10 in the decade and the achievement of winning a heavyweight title rounds out his post 90s career very well but there literally can't be a justification for facing the names he did and avoiding the names he did, for a fighter who is considered, by most in the sport, as great.

I'll ask again what is my initial argument and how has it changed?

This thread has literally nothing to do with who the fighter of the 90's was. You're taking it off topic.

Make a thread about that if you want to talk about that.

[BennyST]

They weren't that good, not nearly good enough to rank Roy Jones as highly as some people do(I hear top 15-20 sometimes) on the merit of his skillset.

For instance people say his chin was never caught untill Tarver but the vast majority of his opponents didn't have the ability to test that chin(like McClellan, Benn, Eubank, young Calzagh and others probably would have.)



I sure wish he would have dominated the peak Hopkins we all know and love to hate, he had many chances for that. Lets not pretend his clear unspectacular UD over green Hopkins was like a win over early 00s Hopkins who wrecked Trinidad.



It's not enough at all to rank him as high as some people do. Where do you rank him?

His chin was tested plenty. De Valle had him down and badly wobbled, but Roy disguised it and fought through it well. He was obviously never cracked by a monster puncher cleanly like McClellan or Benn, but Sosa was a big puncher, he just couldn't land anything.

[BennyST]

I tend to see people say Roy Jones opposition was weak. He didn't fight top calibur opponents. Preposterous in my view but let's take a delve into his alleged "weak opponents".

I'm purposely not going to go into the fights that don't need explaining (most notably Toney and Hopkins) just the fights that are claimed to be "weak opponents";

Jorge Castro - 2-0 against Reggie Johnson (debatable especially the second one) beat John David Jackson twice, 1-1 with Duran. Beaten easily by a young Roy Jones.

Reggie Johnson - IMO one of the most underrated fighters of the 90's - IMO beat Toney, Collins, Two close losses to Castro very unlucky on the second one, close loss to John David Jackson I also thought he won that one. Jones dominated him with ease.

Merqui Sosa - SD loss to Toney, Beat Glen Johnson, beat Prince Charles Williams, competitive loss to Micheal Nunn. Blitzed in 2 rounds by Jones.

Thailand Malinga - SD loss to Eubank that IMO Malinga won. Stopped in 6 by Jones

Montel Griffin - 2-0 against James Toney, blitzed in round 1 by Jones.

Virgil Hill - Long reigning LHW champ. Coming off a decision loss to Dariusz but still a top LHW. Blasted out in 4 rounds.by Jones.

Eric Harding - Underrated, beat Antonio Tarver and Montell Griffin. Jones winning by corner stoppage in the 10th (torn bicep) in fairness an underwhelming performance for once but still ahead on the cards and on the way to a decision win.

What's your view? Weak opposition or was Jones just that good?

I don't see how these opponents can be considered "weak" when the other top fighters of the era they faced couldn't beat them and if they did beat them it wasn't an easy time. Yet Jones destroyed almost all of them with ease.

I think people are now starting to take his resume for what it is. Though I must say Dan, you're confusing me by saying Roy Jones' opposition was very underrated and listing a bunch of decent guys, while on the flip side of the coin trashing Toney's equally good opposition as poor and overrated, outside a couple. You don't see it though do you? Come back from the NSB influenced dark side mate!

But he seemed to go through a long period where his opposition was trashed, when it was always very good. I suppose it's often the way when your career is still going or coming to an end. A few years and people start to get a bit more distance on it.

I think people had a problem during his career with the timing of some fights and then missing others. Floyd's going to face the same thing. In ten years people are going to start to realise just what he did.

[IronDanHamza]

I think people are now starting to take his resume for what it is. Though I must say Dan, you're confusing me by saying Roy Jones' opposition was very underrated and listing a bunch of decent guys, while on the flip side of the coin trashing Toney's equally good opposition as poor and overrated, outside a couple. You don't see it though do you? Come back from the NSB influenced dark side mate!

But he seemed to go through a long period where his opposition was trashed, when it was always very good. I suppose it's often the way when your career is still going or coming to an end. A few years and people start to get a bit more distance on it.

I think people had a problem during his career with the timing of some fights and then missing others. Floyd's going to face the same thing. In ten years people are going to start to realise just what he did.

Seriously, you aswell?

Where have I said Roy Jones opposition is "underrated"?

Where have I said Toney's opposition was "poor" and "overrated"?

What are you confused about?

My first thread is about James Toney's career.

This thread is about the specific list of opponents listed and are they are weak as people claim.

That-is-it.

There's no "underrated" in here, this isn't a comparison between Toney and Jones, it isn't a breakdown of Jones career hell its not even a breakdown of his overall opposition.

Specific opponents, are they really as weak as claimed. No more, no less.

I don't understand the constant confusion my thread title and OP are very clear and I thought easy to understand.

[robertzimmerman]

The guys a child.

He somehow sees the name "RobertZimmerman" as something to be made fun of.

Tell tale sign that he can't debate with you.

He's lost me with the issue of my username.

I don't get it at all.

[BattlingNelson]

Roy was well within his rights to not want to go to Germany with all three of the main belts.

Well within his rights? What do you mean? He was a trinket collector but DM had the real lineal championship. Surely DM was in his right to expect Jones to come and try taking the title away from him.

[robertzimmerman]

Well within his rights? What do you mean? He was a trinket collector but DM had the real lineal championship. Surely DM was in his right to expect Jones to come and try taking the title away from him.

We've discussed this before.

Before he'd lost his belts, sure. But not afterwards. The belts were passed around before Roy obtained them.

I never agreed with Dariusz being held to to ransom by the Org's, although he could have dropped the WBO belt. But either way, what happened had nothing to do with Roy.

I'm looking from Roy's perspective from 2000-2001.

At that point he was the world's best fighter with all three of the main belts.

If you were the world's best fighter with all the main belts, and you'd been robbed in the Olympics, and you'd also seen Dariusz cheat to get an opponent disqualified, would you have gone to Germany? Honestly?

Unless Roy was offered crazy money, there was no point in him putting the IBF, the WBC and the WBA belts on the line, just for the opportunity to win Dariusz's lightly regarded WBO belt. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I'll say this: If Dariusz hadn't have lost those belts that he'd won from Hill, then Roy would had to have gone to Germany to fight Dariusz. He would had to have made the concessions and travelled. The onus would have been on him. But again, why would he have done it when he'd already got the belts? Boxing is a ruthless business. Roy had no moral obligation to travel because of what had happened to Dariusz three years earlier.

I don't think any fighter in Roy's position would have gone over to Germany unless they'd been paid obscene amounts of money.