Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[Syf]

Ah some help has arrived! Chinese communism is a great example, it pushed the greatest Chinese boxers over to Formosa, otherwise known as Tiawan. Unfortunately not all of them made it...many were killed in events like the boxer rebellion, etc. Chinese martial arts were evolved in the 1500's, military men from the ming dynasty were reviewing the "terrible stick fighting techniques" that were taught in the Shao Lin temple!

Most traditional martial artists accept the fact that when the martial arts become "Budo" in Japan replacing the KoRyu Bushido arts, and when the Chinese Arts became Kung Fu and later on Wu Shu, from Chinese Boxing that the arts had been watered down, civilized so they could be spread from warriors, a caste system in the case of Japan, to the common people.

Absolutely correct post...In fist fighting if you screw up you get a fat lip, with a sword you are dead. the Japanese had an ingenius way of trying to convey swordsmanship principles to a cast where people were not allowed to carry swords anymore...a privalege that was taken from the Samurai Caste just before the second world war... The art of Kendo is practiced with Shinai and involves all the trappings of swordsmanship, but there it has been so "Watered down" that people hit with the shinai, instead of cutting and angles have been eliminated, much like fencing in the west...everything becomes speed and timing instead of body work and deception.

meanwhile in Diatoryu Aikijutsu which birthed Aikido, there are no swords in the art...instead the whole body and arm are used as a sword...one can practice the whole art for a lifetime and not even know that their whole art is a form of swordsmanship with no sword! the earlier unwatered down forms of AikiJutsu were used with the sword BTW.

WuShu in China has become glorified gymnastics really. Many people in the martial arts think modern forms are better because people can go full contact. To each his own...I don't think this is true, rather I believe that if you train to fight in a ring with pads on, you will excel at that. If your idea of self defense is a bar fight, taking someone down and kicking them in the head a few times this may work well for you.

Very interesting and accurate information regarding MA history here.

The whole reason I branched into boxing after a decade in traditional martial arts is I noticed a certain fantastical element to most dojos and kwoons. In the end, efficiency of application is all that matters, and many tma'ers just get lost in the philosophy and the movement and lose track of the actual application! This was not a prevalent problem in days of old. Necessity was a harsh master, in those times...

One of my sifu's (bagua, tai chi) took pains to explain the "martial application" of every move of every form, but I still wasn't satisfied, as it all remained essentially theory, to my mind. Then factor in the philosophy of the best tma schools.. only use your skills in defense of you and yours' lives and honor. Wisdom benevolence sincerity bravery ect..and you NEVER end up testing your skills for real until your very life depends on it...which is (for most) not as frequent of an occurrence as it was for the martial artists of old. To sharpen your skills passed the theoretical spectrum, one almost has to include some form of organized combat (boxing for me..but some go mma) unless you are a habitual street fighter.

You are simply wrong here....humans age far less on average now,,,,this gives them more prime years as to the old school athletes. Take two athletes of the same age and compare them....what did Ali at 32 look like compared to klitchko at 40 now? that's one example....Floyd Mayweather? Many or most fightwers look and perform better longer...Even Tyson though he was not the same fighter or holyfield...and FOREMAN.....being stronger than in his 20's.....I don't know what else to say! what skill levels have actually regressed...overall particularly defense is much more employed today,fighters move more and this started with the 80's. Martial arts isn't sport fighting..... only thing about martial arts is there are is theres less better teachers now who actually know what they are doing, thats not athletic performance and has nothing to do with athletics competition unless you are training to fight a specific person such as MMA which I covered.

skill and techinique are only applied to what the individual is up against or what the individual is capable himself...would you like any cruiserweight chance over Fury or Wlad...Howabout Mayweather over Butterbean? lol

If we are discussing validity of skills at their peak and feasibility of a h2h matchup in some fantasy understanding, then length of prime years doesn't much matter. Prime vs prime.

Besides .this assumption that everyone on average is getting healthier is just not true. Despite new knowledge, Dietary standards are actually worse than they were a generation before, as are pollutants, sun's uv rays, aND ect.. This next upcoming generation is not projected to lives as long as their parents. Progress should be earned not assumed... or it will just slip away...

How they preserve their prime has much to do with their style. Someone with a preservationist style like May or Wlad will of course look fresher at 40 than Ali, who, after his legs faded took alot of punishment to win fights. You see guys with short primes in the "new" era. Tyson had a fairly short prime for example, because it was dependent..much like Roy...on superior athleticism.

Yall are chasing a red herring here.. everyone only has 2 hands 2 feet and one heart. Overriding truth.


Btw.. I'd give some "cruisers" in history a shot over Wlad. It's something to be considered, Yes, but skill levels can compensate for 30 lbs weight difference or more.. and... a shaky chin is a shaky chin. Prime May (the culmination of his physical and mental powers) would go circles around butterbean. He could land a jab to that fat gut a round and play keep away the rest of the time, if butterbean doesn't collapse from exhaustion by round 4. Mayweather always liked to play his game in inches.

[juggernaut666]

Very interesting and accurate information regarding MA history here.

The whole reason I branched into boxing after a decade in traditional martial arts is I noticed a certain fantastical element to most dojos and kwoons. In the end, efficiency of application is all that matters, and many tma'ers just get lost in the philosophy and the movement and lose track of the actual application! This was not a prevalent problem in days of old. Necessity was a harsh master, in those times...

One of my sifu's (bagua, tai chi) took pains to explain the "martial application" of every move of every form, but I still wasn't satisfied, as it all remained essentially theory, to my mind. Then factor in the philosophy of the best tma schools.. only use your skills in defense of you and yours' lives and honor. Wisdom benevolence sincerity bravery ect..and you NEVER end up testing your skills for real until your very life depends on it...which is (for most) not as frequent of an occurrence as it was for the martial artists of old. To sharpen your skills passed the theoretical spectrum, one almost has to include some form of organized combat (boxing for me..but some go mma) unless you are a habitual street fighter.



If we are discussing validity of skills at their peak and feasibility of a h2h matchup in some fantasy understanding, then length of prime years doesn't much matter. Prime vs prime.

Besides .this assumption that everyone on average is getting healthier is just not true. Despite new knowledge, Dietary standards are actually worse than they were a generation before, as are pollutants, sun's uv rays, aND ect.. This next upcoming generation is not projected to lives as long as their parents. Progress should be earned not assumed... or it will just slip away...

How they preserve their prime has much to do with their style. Someone with a preservationist style like May or Wlad will of course look fresher at 40 than Ali, who, after his legs faded took alot of punishment to win fights. You see guys with short primes in the "new" era. Tyson had a fairly short prime for example, because it was dependent..much like Roy...on superior athleticism.

Yall are chasing a red herring here.. everyone only has 2 hands 2 feet and one heart. Overriding truth.


Btw.. I'd give some "cruisers" in history a shot over Wlad. It's something to be considered, Yes, but skill levels can compensate for 30 lbs weight difference or more.. and... a shaky chin is a shaky chin. Prime May (the culmination of his physical and mental powers) would go circles around butterbean. He could land a jab to that fat gut a round and play keep away the rest of the time, if butterbean doesn't collapse from exhaustion by round 4. Mayweather always liked to play his game in inches.

All records are being broken in every sport.This indicates the majority of athletes are better. I give no one under 200 a shot at Wlad......theres simply no evidence to suggest that. a punchers chance? Well everyone has that but I haven't seen anyone with not just the power but the physical attributes to make that claim. Food is now less preservatives in them..its a proven fact food is better today,only ones poor diet will dictate it being less than yester year. Theres just more poor choices and fake food out there that does not dictate to what the topic is and that's athletic performance of the fighters with better diets/proteins and understanding along with advanced supplementation are the advantages today.

Tyson had a short prime because of his style not his diet or lifestyle really.....guys like Frazier/Marciano didn't either...primes longetivitly does matter because one grows and learns and has more years to progress that's why the Wlads and Lewis's along with Vitali were so difficult to defeat along with style however if you are saying fighters are not recovering faster ,you would be wrong and that's because of what the topic is new vs old ways of doing things..and that is the truth!

If you want an example of a current HW champ that has a poor diet..look at Fury....hes not even 30...hes like 27/28 going on 40!

[billeau2]

Very interesting and accurate information regarding MA history here.

The whole reason I branched into boxing after a decade in traditional martial arts is I noticed a certain fantastical element to most dojos and kwoons. In the end, efficiency of application is all that matters, and many tma'ers just get lost in the philosophy and the movement and lose track of the actual application! This was not a prevalent problem in days of old. Necessity was a harsh master, in those times...

One of my sifu's (bagua, tai chi) took pains to explain the "martial application" of every move of every form, but I still wasn't satisfied, as it all remained essentially theory, to my mind. Then factor in the philosophy of the best tma schools.. only use your skills in defense of you and yours' lives and honor. Wisdom benevolence sincerity bravery ect..and you NEVER end up testing your skills for real until your very life depends on it...which is (for most) not as frequent of an occurrence as it was for the martial artists of old. To sharpen your skills passed the theoretical spectrum, one almost has to include some form of organized combat (boxing for me..but some go mma) unless you are a habitual street fighter.



If we are discussing validity of skills at their peak and feasibility of a h2h matchup in some fantasy understanding, then length of prime years doesn't much matter. Prime vs prime.

Besides .this assumption that everyone on average is getting healthier is just not true. Despite new knowledge, Dietary standards are actually worse than they were a generation before, as are pollutants, sun's uv rays, aND ect.. This next upcoming generation is not projected to lives as long as their parents. Progress should be earned not assumed... or it will just slip away...

How they preserve their prime has much to do with their style. Someone with a preservationist style like May or Wlad will of course look fresher at 40 than Ali, who, after his legs faded took alot of punishment to win fights. You see guys with short primes in the "new" era. Tyson had a fairly short prime for example, because it was dependent..much like Roy...on superior athleticism.

Yall are chasing a red herring here.. everyone only has 2 hands 2 feet and one heart. Overriding truth.


Btw.. I'd give some "cruisers" in history a shot over Wlad. It's something to be considered, Yes, but skill levels can compensate for 30 lbs weight difference or more.. and... a shaky chin is a shaky chin. Prime May (the culmination of his physical and mental powers) would go circles around butterbean. He could land a jab to that fat gut a round and play keep away the rest of the time, if butterbean doesn't collapse from exhaustion by round 4. Mayweather always liked to play his game in inches.

TMA'rs were responsible for their own denigration. many of them chose to take on faith what must be understood experientially. What I always point out is that the way one trains is the way one trains...it just sounds justifiably absurd if a judo player for example said, "we just do the goshin kata (the self defense kata Kano created for judo) and don't roll on the mat."

One simply has to test and fight with techniques to be effective. I started training at 13 in the fighting clubs of baltimore...At that time i had no idea and thought all Karate training meant learning technique and then fighting with technique... Then I saw how other's trained with kata and little else and it was ridiculous to me.

But interesting enough...you always had traditionalists who fought with the art...with Kwoons i remember some very tough Moo Duk Kwan clubs in baltimore...bagua is a great art, they say the mother systems of China are Bagua for circles, Hsin yi for linear and Tai Chi for unifying movement.

Unfortunately though there is a certain theoretical element to many of the processes in martial arts. I like the words of Mas Oyama who had this to say about the supposed spiritual elements of the martial arts: "Train the body hard and the mind will follow." Its interesting to also note that many of the core martial artists who became tough, practical teachers, were converted from boxing. Robert Trias who became one of the most prominant teachers of Okinawan karate in this country (he was count dante's teacher lol!) started training karate when a strong but slightly built Okinawan saw him boxing and laughingly challenged him. As trias told it he thought he would have some fun and just gently teach this smiling jap a lesson since the boys were around (everyone was a jap back then sigh...)

Well that gentleman wiped the floor with Robert as he described it...and he was the one that had to go gently on poor Triase! Triase was as he told it a boxing champ. Riley Hawkins and many other guys also had backgrounds in boxing originally. Its also worth noting that before Chinese martial arts were basterdized (as you correctly point out) they were essentially comprehensive boxing systems. They had weapons also but were referred to as boxing systems...Ba is eight in Chinese and you would know better than I, but isn't Bagua eight hexigram boxing?

Anyway its nice to have a kindred spirit here! martial arts without the necessity and urgency of combat becomes dead forms unfortunately.

[ShoulderRoll]

...would you like any cruiserweight chance over Fury or Wlad...

37 year old Steve Cunningham put Fury on his butt so yeah, I could easily see some of history's best cruiserweights having a chance to beat him.

[Elroy1]

37 year old Steve Cunningham put Fury on his butt so yeah, I could easily see some of history's best cruiserweights having a chance to beat him.

To be fair, Steve Cunningham is right up there in ability with the very best Cruisers ever to make the grade at HW..

Namely this shortlist also includes..

Evander Holyfield, David Haye, Tomasz Adamek, Michael Moorer, Michael Spinks (barely), Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd, Jean MArc Mormeck...

That's basically IT! If I've lets any out it's only 1 or 2!

And this incident in question now is total bollocks! He caught a clowning Fury with a great shot. The only highlight of the fight for him. Other than that, Fury dominated and wasted Steve!

Try again nut bag!

And please note all of these cruisers (or blown up sub cruisers) were much better than any pre-professional era boxers who were in the cruiser weight range.

The best of the pre-professional era cruisers imo was Muhammad Ali.. And the crappest boxer on that list, probably Spinks, was imo better than any Ali!

Case closed!!

[juggernaut666]

37 year old Steve Cunningham put Fury on his butt so yeah, I could easily see some of history's best cruiserweights having a chance to beat him.

Except im not talking Fury..cunninham totally blitzed him with an over hand right that would drop a lot of guys however you wont find wlad clowning around in the ring ever.You also have to realize cunninham is 6'3 with an 82 inch reach correct?

[juggernaut666]

TMA'rs were responsible for their own denigration. many of them chose to take on faith what must be understood experientially. What I always point out is that the way one trains is the way one trains...it just sounds justifiably absurd if a judo player for example said, "we just do the goshin kata (the self defense kata Kano created for judo) and don't roll on the mat."

One simply has to test and fight with techniques to be effective. I started training at 13 in the fighting clubs of baltimore...At that time i had no idea and thought all Karate training meant learning technique and then fighting with technique... Then I saw how other's trained with kata and little else and it was ridiculous to me.

But interesting enough...you always had traditionalists who fought with the art...with Kwoons i remember some very tough Moo Duk Kwan clubs in baltimore...bagua is a great art, they say the mother systems of China are Bagua for circles, Hsin yi for linear and Tai Chi for unifying movement.

Unfortunately though there is a certain theoretical element to many of the processes in martial arts. I like the words of Mas Oyama who had this to say about the supposed spiritual elements of the martial arts: "Train the body hard and the mind will follow." Its interesting to also note that many of the core martial artists who became tough, practical teachers, were converted from boxing. Robert Trias who became one of the most prominant teachers of Okinawan karate in this country (he was count dante's teacher lol!) started training karate when a strong but slightly built Okinawan saw him boxing and laughingly challenged him. As trias told it he thought he would have some fun and just gently teach this smiling jap a lesson since the boys were around (everyone was a jap back then sigh...)

Well that gentleman wiped the floor with Robert as he described it...and he was the one that had to go gently on poor Triase! Triase was as he told it a boxing champ. Riley Hawkins and many other guys also had backgrounds in boxing originally. Its also worth noting that before Chinese martial arts were basterdized (as you correctly point out) they were essentially comprehensive boxing systems. They had weapons also but were referred to as boxing systems...Ba is eight in Chinese and you would know better than I, but isn't Bagua eight hexigram boxing?

Anyway its nice to have a kindred spirit here! martial arts without the necessity and urgency of combat becomes dead forms unfortunately.

Gichin Funakoshi was born in Shuri, Okinawa in 1868. As a boy, he was trained by two famous masters of that time. Each trained him in a different Okinawan martial art. From Yasutsune Azato he learned Shuri-te. From Yasutsune Itosu, he learned Naha-te. It would be the melding of these two styles that would one day become Shotokan karate.

Funakoshi-sensei is the man who introduced karate to Japan. In 1917 he was asked to perform his martial art at a physical education exhibition sponsored by the Ministry of Education. He was asked back again in 1922 for another exhibition. He was asked back a third time, but this was a special performance. He demonstrated his art for the emporer and the royal family! Atfer this, Funakoshi-sensei decided to remain in Japan and teach and promote his art.

Gichin Funakoshi passed away in 1957 at the age of 88. Aside from creating Shotokan karate and introducing it to Japan and the world, he also wrote the very book on the subject of karate, "Ryukyu Kempo: Karate-do". He also wrote "Karate-Do Kyohan" - The Master Text, the "handbook" of Shotokan and he wrote his autobiography, "Karate-Do: My Way of Life". These books and his art are a fitting legacy for this unassuming and gentle man.





This is a photo of a memorial to Gichin Funakoshi. This memorial to Master Funakoshi was erected at Enkaku-ji Temple in Kamakura in 1968. The calligraphy at the right is by the master; that at the left is by Asahina Sogen, chief priest of the temple, and reads, "Karate ni sente nashi" (There is no first attack in karate).

This is my lineage that im breached off and represent! in ANY competition! My sensai's ..sensai, Sensai learner directly from him.

[Syf]

TMA'rs were responsible for their own denigration. many of them chose to take on faith what must be understood experientially. What I always point out is that the way one trains is the way one trains...it just sounds justifiably absurd if a judo player for example said, "we just do the goshin kata (the self defense kata Kano created for judo) and don't roll on the mat."

One simply has to test and fight with techniques to be effective. I started training at 13 in the fighting clubs of baltimore...At that time i had no idea and thought all Karate training meant learning technique and then fighting with technique... Then I saw how other's trained with kata and little else and it was ridiculous to me.

But interesting enough...you always had traditionalists who fought with the art...with Kwoons i remember some very tough Moo Duk Kwan clubs in baltimore...bagua is a great art, they say the mother systems of China are Bagua for circles, Hsin yi for linear and Tai Chi for unifying movement.

Unfortunately though there is a certain theoretical element to many of the processes in martial arts. I like the words of Mas Oyama who had this to say about the supposed spiritual elements of the martial arts: "Train the body hard and the mind will follow." Its interesting to also note that many of the core martial artists who became tough, practical teachers, were converted from boxing. Robert Trias who became one of the most prominant teachers of Okinawan karate in this country (he was count dante's teacher lol!) started training karate when a strong but slightly built Okinawan saw him boxing and laughingly challenged him. As trias told it he thought he would have some fun and just gently teach this smiling jap a lesson since the boys were around (everyone was a jap back then sigh...)

Well that gentleman wiped the floor with Robert as he described it...and he was the one that had to go gently on poor Triase! Triase was as he told it a boxing champ. Riley Hawkins and many other guys also had backgrounds in boxing originally. Its also worth noting that before Chinese martial arts were basterdized (as you correctly point out) they were essentially comprehensive boxing systems. They had weapons also but were referred to as boxing systems...Ba is eight in Chinese and you would know better than I, but isn't Bagua eight hexigram boxing?

Anyway its nice to have a kindred spirit here! martial arts without the necessity and urgency of combat becomes dead forms unfortunately.

We always knew it as 8 diagram palm. Or the eight direction rooted step. The general idea was to be able to outmaneuver and out angle your opponent with circle walking and circle walk inspired movement, all while still staying rooted.. its more of a close combat style than say..hung gar.. though it did have staff and sword forms for range. But most all of the kicks consisted of attacks to the knee or waistline.. diversions for the most part for the various hand techniques that come into play. Kicks were very practical, it's altogether a very grounded and practical art.

A good art. My sifu had a falling out with the grandmaster..and loyalties had me leaving the federation as well. So thats that. Politics.

But yeah the foundational principles of bagua goes hand in hand with boxing... as it teaches one to have a very solid root even on the move. My first boxing coach had doubts that any of my previous knowledge would be useful in the ring, until he saw how I could maneuver around and still punch hard.

Though I must say... in my fusion experimenting..the v step especially got me in trouble in the boxing ring. Lol. Unless I'm doing it more subtly or as part of a minute transition... I find very little use for MA'S vstep in the squared circle..leaves the centerline too open.

I believe it about the karate guy beating a boxer. I studied under a shotokan guy for a while.. very powerful though a bit too linear and force on force for my tastes.. There are still some good artists out there that have kept their heads out of the clouds. Also boxers have literally no open hand technique... a detriment for them against other arts.

Yeah man..good to see you here too. I been seen you dropping knowledge on here.

[Syf]

All records are being broken in every sport.This indicates the majority of athletes are better. I give no one under 200 a shot at Wlad......theres simply no evidence to suggest that. a punchers chance? Well everyone has that but I haven't seen anyone with not just the power but the physical attributes to make that claim. Food is now less preservatives in them..its a proven fact food is better today,only ones poor diet will dictate it being less than yester year. Theres just more poor choices and fake food out there that does not dictate to what the topic is and that's athletic performance of the fighters with better diets/proteins and understanding along with advanced supplementation are the advantages today.

Tyson had a short prime because of his style not his diet or lifestyle really.....guys like Frazier/Marciano didn't either...primes longetivitly does matter because one grows and learns and has more years to progress that's why the Wlads and Lewis's along with Vitali were so difficult to defeat along with style however if you are saying fighters are not recovering faster ,you would be wrong and that's because of what the topic is new vs old ways of doing things..and that is the truth!

If you want an example of a current HW champ that has a poor diet..look at Fury....hes not even 30...hes like 27/28 going on 40!

People are recovering better from workouts sure... and yet... the old timers fought fifteen rounds and fought dozens and dozens of more times throughout their careers. Pep for instance, fought over 200 times. There is some kind of disconnect there where these supposedly more well conditioned athletes gas quicker and fight less often... it could be mindset or something else, but it leaves an overall impression that some of the prima donnas of today wold be chewed up for breakfast by the hard bitten characters of the past...

I had a chat with a guy in the training forum and he was dead set on this strength versus endurance thing. I tend to think it's a more nuanced thing but for the purposes of clarity..it seems fighters today have less endurance overall. Despite all these advanced methods.

Less preservatives..maybe. though you will find the corporations have just gotten sneakier with their branding and labeling. They still take the same shortcuts..if not more.. than they did in the past because they have to produce more product for a growing population and still turn a profit. At the very least, the use of high fructose corn syrup has become almost criminal these days. It..or a sneakily renamed derivative of it..is in mostly everything. You have "vegetarian fed" chicken products but what does that even mean? No meat or dairy? Well that's good! Don't want that! It's all labeling and branding..they got the populace walking blind.

In the end.... the supplements..the training methods..it's all very nice (I take supplements too) but is very much so it's namesake..supplementary to what makes a true fighter. Too much emphasis is being placed on it and not enough on what matters. Skill and will.

Didn't say Tyson's short prime was from diet..said it was from style.. your original argument was that primes are longer in the new age.... I countered with style considerations regarding primes...

Simple disagreement there... I just don't rate Wlad very high compared to top guys in history. Too tentative. Too predictable. Just because people in this era were largely not creative enough to put him to sleep..doesn't mean past greats would not have. I realize some guys got Wlad on a pedestal though..so agree to disagree there.

[juggernaut666]

People are recovering better from workouts sure... and yet... the old timers fought fifteen rounds and fought dozens and dozens of more times throughout their careers. Pep for instance, fought over 200 times. There is some kind of disconnect there where these supposedly more well conditioned athletes gas quicker and fight less often... it could be mindset or something else, but it leaves an overall impression that some of the prima donnas of today wold be chewed up for breakfast by the hard bitten characters of the past...

I had a chat with a guy in the training forum and he was dead set on this strength versus endurance thing. I tend to think it's a more nuanced thing but for the purposes of clarity..it seems fighters today have less endurance overall. Despite all these advanced methods.

Less preservatives..maybe. though you will find the corporations have just gotten sneakier with their branding and labeling. They still take the same shortcuts..if not more.. than they did in the past because they have to produce more product for a growing population and still turn a profit. At the very least, the use of high fructose corn syrup has become almost criminal these days. It..or a sneakily renamed derivative of it..is in mostly everything. You have "vegetarian fed" chicken products but what does that even mean? No meat or dairy? Well that's good! Don't want that! It's all labeling and branding..they got the populace walking blind.

In the end.... the supplements..the training methods..it's all very nice (I take supplements too) but is very much so it's namesake..supplementary to what makes a true fighter. Too much emphasis is being placed on it and not enough on what matters. Skill and will.

Didn't say Tyson's short prime was from diet..said it was from style.. your original argument was that primes are longer in the new age.... I countered with style considerations regarding primes...

Simple disagreement there... I just don't rate Wlad very high compared to top guys in history. Too tentative. Too predictable. Just because people in this era were largely not creative enough to put him to sleep..doesn't mean past greats would not have. I realize some guys got Wlad on a pedestal though..so agree to disagree there.

Going 15 rnds means little it just slows the pace down i broke this down already !

Predictable along with better genetics will beat less stronger,less effective .You also said Wlad is basic ,however he is fast and technical and his 3 range jabs confuse the opposition very easily ,he also uses superior positioning which is why opponents usually dont land clean shots often they simply cant stand in front and often rush in forcing the clinch which avoids a k.o but doesnt win them the fight.

Not sure why the PEP convo comes in,he was like 5'4 or something and fought other miniatures ,when they started hooking to his body he started to not have as much success moving losing to Sadler a few times..,back then that was considered genius ....today we scratch our heads and say why dont hey just do this or that like any common boxer would. Simple advancements !Was PEP good?yea but lets be real if you make two puppets on a stick with popscicle arms and twist and turn them their mobility is limited to the puppet itself...Pep simply stood in front of his opposition and basically just bobbed up and down or ran around the ring playing tag me ....is this good boxing? Yea if your opponents are also puppets . Was there more involved with positioning ?Yes ,but its still limited to what his opposition had skill wise .You also negate fighters are wearing more padded gloves which in the long haul add up on making arms heavier anyone who disagrees hss never fought with less padded 6/8 OZ before ,big differences in just putting them on ,the punches come considerably faster.

Should PEP be considered an ATG ?Yes ,he did what he did in HIS era and should go in the history books!


The other stuff ,an ATHLETE doesnt have or follow the AVERAGE persons diet so im not sure what high fructose corn syrup proves here ,thats been around a long time and as a guy whos been into physical fitness for 3 decades i can tell you ppl are stronger and more fit who actually train!