Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[juggernaut666]

[.I drew with the kid who took first place ...it was at his own gym it was a P.A championship....It was double elimination....funny thing is everyone else got a to go 2 times and I didn't ? This has happened in other different kinds of tourneys to me go figure? lol

I hear you. We trained to grab when we used a reverse punch and to hit through the target ... I was the chief instructor for my college and included two major navy bases...so I am training these guys to fight and to compete. They would go to the tournaments as they were coming up and clean out their divisions...literally having to fight each other. Naturally I was very proud of them, and the it was nice having the other guys come from base because of our reputation...there was one big problem though! I always got disqualified for grabbing, or hitting to hard. I didn't mean to do it but I could not adjust when we did point fighting. It was a running joke But when we fought full contact everything was ok.[/QUOTE]


I got disqualified for excessive contact with point karate..in mid ranks....I did want to compete higher but they thought it may look su****ious......the thing is point fighting for me is difficult b/c its 4 jusdges on corners calling b.s hits ...who strikes first which I was aware but well I hit real fast and technical apparently they didn't see my 5 shots to his 1 so kickd him out of the circle the match point and was DQ'd..lol....My sensai who was only me and him taking on all schools kind of chuckle and then just watched the others compete....long story short point fighting very hard when concentarating not getting tagged first by little point hitting. basically I lost the match for sending this guy 10 feet with also just blocking him.....and yea this guy won the tournament o like the last one I entered...lol

[Humean]

Ha I knew you would mention Galento i was toying with the idea of addressing that beforehand in the other post...two things about Tony:

He really stands out because of his alleged condition, so he was rather an anomolie, as compared to today where a lot of boxing heavyweights (not as many MMA heavyweights) are obviously carrying extra heft, usually fat.

Second thing is, He could fight and throw punches...quite a few and managed to perform effectively.

I understand that we measure and that we have specific training that addresses more abstract areas of conditioning but...in the final analysis what we look at is, and always will be performance. The reason I say this is not to be unscientific. When one looks at Tunney versus Dempsey for example, you are looking at an example of two fighters in peak condition. That is the goal of training. How one gets in peak condition is important, but secondary really. Sometimes athletes can borrow fitness developments and make it a development that really makes a difference. So, Nautilus training created for college football teams became a philosophy of training (maximum intensity, minimum time) that was revolutionary. The proof of which is how football players suddenly got bigger and stronger. Even when controlling for steriods.

Your too smart to buy the "old guy in dingy gym" garbage, I won't even respond to that. Athletes condition to perform. There is a school of thought that says if you took Lamont Brewster and took off his excess weight you would have Joe Louis, in effect. I am not so sure of that. I am not so sure that given new conditions in boxing, that it might be better for fighters to try to train for certain different goals related to glove size, etc. What I do know as fact is that fighters traditionally were trained in such a way that they could perform well, were in great shape to box traditionally.

I agree that many of today's heavyweights are carrying a lot of fat, far too much, it is certainly easier to put on weight today than it was in the 30s or 40s but the heavyweight division is but one weight class. Besides Galento wasn't just very fat, he was also at one point the number #1 rated heavyweight contender and was ranked in the top 5 for a number of years.

How do you know that Dempsey and Tunney were in 'peak condition'? I'm sure they were as well conditioned as a 1920s heavyweight could be but standards increase, it is so clearly revealed in the progression of world records in athletics.

I made the 'old guy in some dingy gym' comment because of the embarrassing deference displayed to the old trainers, as if they were like some kind of boxing prophets in possession of the one true boxing knowledge (if that previous deranged poster is to be believed then maybe the likes of Ray Arcel had the words of Apollo revealed to them through a burning protector cup).

[Ray Corso]

A quick comment on Gallento as he is mentioned on the forum with some distain and often as a joke!
He was a heavy boned guy who worked as an "iceman" as a kid! He delivered blocks of ice to residence and that is a job that most won't even attempt back then. To say he was a strong man is a under statement and his left hook would hurt ANY man and did!
He was a street brawler and club bouncer who could absorb punishment and actually had very good stamina and recoupertive powers.

I just watched a former champion last night get out classed because he couldn't box for more than a few seconds at a time (Pascal) We scoff at Two Ton Tony but you won't find one opponent that ever fought him say it was FUN! The guy LOVED to fight, inside the ring outside the ring in the alley on the porch!
Theres a great old story about him heckling Jackie Gleason in a club to the point that Gleason ordered him "outside"! Tony came back in right away and Gleason was KO'd in the alley, one punch. Gleason was a tough guy in his day
too.
Point being looks are genetic, yes you can improve them with hard work but hard work doesn't gift anyone the "will to fight". No one took Gallento lightly, he was also a dirty MF, he'd take your eye (thumb) and rake them too.
Pleasant fellow.
Ray

[billeau2]

I hear you. We trained to grab when we used a reverse punch and to hit through the target ... I was the chief instructor for my college and included two major navy bases...so I am training these guys to fight and to compete. They would go to the tournaments as they were coming up and clean out their divisions...literally having to fight each other. Naturally I was very proud of them, and the it was nice having the other guys come from base because of our reputation...there was one big problem though! I always got disqualified for grabbing, or hitting to hard. I didn't mean to do it but I could not adjust when we did point fighting. It was a running joke But when we fought full contact everything was ok.

I got disqualified for excessive contact with point karate..in mid ranks....I did want to compete higher but they thought it may look su****ious......the thing is point fighting for me is difficult b/c its 4 jusdges on corners calling b.s hits ...who strikes first which I was aware but well I hit real fast and technical apparently they didn't see my 5 shots to his 1 so kickd him out of the circle the match point and was DQ'd..lol....My sensai who was only me and him taking on all schools kind of chuckle and then just watched the others compete....long story short point fighting very hard when concentarating not getting tagged first by little point hitting. basically I lost the match for sending this guy 10 feet with also just blocking him.....and yea this guy won the tournament o like the last one I entered...lol[/QUOTE]

Exactly why I hate point fighting. I has similar experiences. It was good for some of my guys to get their feet wet, but thats about it. If I had the resources people do now, I would not have done point fighting. For us most tourneys were full contact body and point to the face. It is a glorified game of tag and little else really.

[billeau2]

I agree that many of today's heavyweights are carrying a lot of fat, far too much, it is certainly easier to put on weight today than it was in the 30s or 40s but the heavyweight division is but one weight class. Besides Galento wasn't just very fat, he was also at one point the number #1 rated heavyweight contender and was ranked in the top 5 for a number of years.

How do you know that Dempsey and Tunney were in 'peak condition'? I'm sure they were as well conditioned as a 1920s heavyweight could be but standards increase, it is so clearly revealed in the progression of world records in athletics.

I made the 'old guy in some dingy gym' comment because of the embarrassing deference displayed to the old trainers, as if they were like some kind of boxing prophets in possession of the one true boxing knowledge (if that previous deranged poster is to be believed then maybe the likes of Ray Arcel had the words of Apollo revealed to them through a burning protector cup).

With the Dempsey Tunney fight, i don't know if they were in peak condition, that is true. We do know that they both appeared to be in excellent shape, fought at a fast pace, and did not seem hampered by fatigue. There are many things to consider when assuming that records being broken are a product of evolved athletes. Standards also can be a tricky thing...for example, its a fact that children around the first half of the 20th century (up until the 1960S) in the united states were physically more fit and able to do much more physically than children in the country today...thats an actual statistic based on measures of children doing exerscizes, girth, etc.

Does this ultimately affect athletes? well yes and no...If athletes are coming from a less athletic upbringing it may well have consequences.

[Anthony342]

Records are broken often these days, true. But nobody seems to have surpassed Joe Lewis' 25 defenses of the heavyweight title, especially lineal and Ali's record of winning the lineal heavyweight title 3 times still stand today. There are definitely better athletes, but that doesn't always translate to better fighters. In some cases yes, others no.

[juggernaut666]

I got disqualified for excessive contact with point karate..in mid ranks....I did want to compete higher but they thought it may look su****ious......the thing is point fighting for me is difficult b/c its 4 jusdges on corners calling b.s hits ...who strikes first which I was aware but well I hit real fast and technical apparently they didn't see my 5 shots to his 1 so kickd him out of the circle the match point and was DQ'd..lol....My sensai who was only me and him taking on all schools kind of chuckle and then just watched the others compete....long story short point fighting very hard when concentarating not getting tagged first by little point hitting. basically I lost the match for sending this guy 10 feet with also just blocking him.....and yea this guy won the tournament o like the last one I entered...lol

Exactly why I hate point fighting. I has similar experiences. It was good for some of my guys to get their feet wet, but thats about it. If I had the resources people do now, I would not have done point fighting. For us most tourneys were full contact body and point to the face. It is a glorified game of tag and little else really.[/QUOTE]


Yea well unless you know the judges in point karate you have the odds even more so against you...to my every 3 clear hits he only had to score 1...yes I sent the guy exactly ten feet from kick to chest straight on out of the in bounds zone...DQ'd that was my first and last one I entered......lol

[juggernaut666]

Records are broken often these days, true. But nobody seems to have surpassed Joe Lewis' 25 defenses of the heavyweight title, especially lineal and Ali's record of winning the lineal heavyweight title 3 times still stand today. There are definitely better athletes, but that doesn't always translate to better fighters. In some cases yes, others no.

Louis fought more frequently.

[ShoulderRoll]

This TED Talk is an interesting one and relevant to the thread topic.

https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epst...er?language=en




"In 1936, Jesse Owens held the world record in the 100 meters. Had Jesse Owens been racing last year in the world championships of the 100 meters, when Jamaican sprinter Usain Bolt finished, Owens would have still had 14 feet to go. That's a lot in sprinter land. To give you a sense of how much it is, I want to share with you a demonstration conceived by sports scientist Ross Tucker. Now picture the stadium last year at the world championships of the 100 meters: thousands of fans waiting with baited breath to see Usain Bolt, the fastest man in history; flashbulbs popping as the nine fastest men in the world coil themselves into their blocks. And I want you to pretend that Jesse Owens is in that race. Now close your eyes for a second and picture the race. ****! The gun goes off. An American sprinter jumps out to the front. Usain Bolt starts to catch him. Usain Bolt passes him, and as the runners come to the finish, you'll hear a beep as each man crosses the line. (Beeps) That's the entire finish of the race. You can open your eyes now.

That first beep was Usain Bolt. That last beep was Jesse Owens. Listen to it again. (Beeps) When you think of it like that, it's not that big a difference, is it? And then consider that Usain Bolt started by propelling himself out of blocks down a specially fabricated carpet designed to allow him to travel as fast as humanly possible. Jesse Owens, on the other hand, ran on cinders, the ash from burnt wood, and that soft surface stole far more energy from his legs as he ran. Rather than blocks, Jesse Owens had a gardening trowel that he had to use to dig holes in the cinders to start from. Biomechanical analysis of the speed of Owens' joints shows that had been running on the same surface as Bolt, he wouldn't have been 14 feet behind, he would have been within one stride. Rather than the last beep, Owens would have been the second beep. Listen to it again. (Beeps) That's the difference track surface technology has made, and it's done it throughout the running world."

[Anthony342]

Louis fought more frequently.

Yes and with one title belt, not 4 like today. Also held the title for almost 12 years.