Wlad's Place in History Discussion

**Bozbay** · 12-01-2015, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by McGoorty

Probably never will be a huge favourite among USA fans and in many other countries but Wlad did successfully defend his title more times and I think over a longer period than any previous champ and for sure I wouldn't put shyte on him to a Ukranian.. He moved pretty well for a giant and it took another giant in Tyson Fury to de-throne him, Wlad hit hard, maybe only because of his size, I didn't get to see his fight against Fury but I guess hardly anyone did, you still can't see even a highlight video of the fight and there are many of his fights I didn't bother to see either but that's not Wlad's fault, I simply refuse to pay 100 bucks a month for FOX and then the extra PpV costs, I want my boxing free to air........................................ but anyway, point is I cannot make a full review of him as a fighter, he had most of the skills, hit hard and had a pretty good chin, faults I observed was speed and sometimes his stamina wasn't the best and he did a lot of holding but alas, his title reign is over now so he belongs to history now. He has joined Jeffries, Johnson, Willard, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Clay, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis and his brother as major champs of the heavyweight division,

I do not think it appropriate here to put Wlad against any of the guys for 30 years ago to 100 years ago, the size differences ARE very important and we will just get a false idea of him. What matters with him, the names I mentioned already and every other champ since time began is WHO did they fight, WHO did they beat, WERE they dominant, WERE they drug cheats. WHAT did their contemporaries feel and think about him.... etc.... you can only fight and beat what is out there...........

He's in the top 10 heavyweights ever purely because he defended his title so many times. But the level of competition has been awful, always fighting smaller guys. When he finally faced some his own, or slightly taller, he got embarrassed. I don't believe Wladimir has one Hall of Famer on his resume right? Says it all.

As for as pound for pound, maybe he is in the top 30 ever. But in terms of his division, you can't even think about ranking him higher than Ali, Tyson, Lennox, Holyfield and Joe Louis. An ATG Heavyweight though, no denying.

Also, you can't match-up Wladimir against these guys in a fight. Eras are completely different. If you're comparing greatness, you have to look at accomplishments and competition.

**Elroy1** · 12-01-2015, 04:37 AM

There's never been any champion to date as good in a H2H sense most likely.

None of the guys who have beaten Wlad, including the most recent one would be favoured over the best version of Wlad. IF we take either Sanders or Fury to be the best I'd say Sanders and Haye have a 1/3 chance and Fury a 1/5.

Broadening the conflict the 2 most likely to conquer are his brother Vitali and LEnnox Lewis who are nearly even prospects.

Then we go to Mike Tyson and Rid**** Bowe and Holyfield etc and we're back in the realm of Fury and Sanders style chances.

Talking "achievement" as rated against the criteria of your own time, then there's never been anything even CLOSE to Klitschko and it's plausible that there wont be anybody overtaking for atleast a century.

A near perfect display of boxing spanning 3 decades.

Klitshcko is the undisputed GOAT by any sane measure.

The Fury rematch will be his last fight almost certainly now. Even if he should LOSE that encounter, his legacy will be totally untarnished.

That's the beauty of signing out on losses right at the end of the career, you can write them off as done without altering your competitive stats. And if he wins that will only build on the ALREADY achieved greatness outlined above.

These are the facts.

**Bozbay** · 12-01-2015, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by Elroy1

There's never been any champion to date as good in a H2H sense most likely.

None of the guys who have beaten Wlad, including the most recent one would be favoured over the best version of Wlad. IF we take either Sanders or Fury to be the best I'd say Sanders and Haye have a 1/3 chance and Fury a 1/5.

Broadening the conflict the 2 most likely to conquer are his brother Vitali and LEnnox Lewis who are nearly even prospects.

Then we go to Mike Tyson and Rid**** Bowe and Holyfield etc and we're back in the realm of Fury and Sanders style chances.

Talking "achievement" as rated against the criteria of your own time, then there's never been anything even CLOSE to Klitschko and it's plausible that there wont be anybody overtaking for atleast a century.

A near perfect display of boxing spanning 3 decades.

Klitshcko is the undisputed GOAT by any sane measure.

The Fury rematch will be his last fight almost certainly now. Even if he should LOSE that encounter, his legacy will be totally untarnished.

That's the beauty of signing out on losses right at the end of the career, you can write them off as done without altering your competitive stats. And if he wins that will only build on the ALREADY achieved greatness outlined above.

These are the facts.

Fury would have beaten Wladimir at any stage of his career. Stylistically, it proved to be all wrong for Wlad. His age didn't hinder him. He was hesitant to let anything go. What you have to ask yourself is, could Ali have done what Wlad did in his era? Easily, probably even better. Not a single HOF on that resume.

**Elroy1** · 12-01-2015, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Bozbay

Fury would have beaten Wladimir at any stage of his career. Stylistically, it proved to be all wrong for Wlad. His age didn't hinder him. He was hesitant to let anything go. What you have to ask yourself is, could Ali have done what Wlad did in his era? Easily, probably even better. Not a single HOF on that resume.

- Almost ALL of Wladimir's championship fighters are HOF worthy opponents. There is simply no such thing as a HOFer in an era with such a dominant champion as Wlad because he doesn't allow others to shine he is so great. Tyson Fury HIMSELF isn't a HOFer yet simply for beating Wladimir and Wladimir himself exceeds HOF or ATG, those terms don't adequately describe him, more like SATG (Super-All Time Great) seems sufficient.

-Almost none of the established HOFers or ATG's could beat ANY of Wladimir's better opponents, let alone Wladimir himself.

-Ali would have never been allowed to fight as a HW in Wladimir's era, he would have got his ass busted as Cruiserweight as they were all far faster, stronger, more powerful, more atheltic and far more skilled than he was and he would have been only marginally useful as a sparring partner for even Wladimir's opponents, let alone Wladimir himself.

-Finally, there is no hard proof that Fury could NOT have beaten Wladimir anytime, but there is EXTREMELY circumstantial evidence to suggest he couldn't have. Something to the tune of a 1/10 chance for Fury. This was the best version of Fury ever seen against a version of Wlad not seen so bad since he was comebacking from being wasted. He is most certainly age ravaged, and was most certainly lazy and complacent, underestimating Fury, there can be no denying that.

- I doubt any NON-nut bag would really argue that best Wlad likely beats best Fury. The ONLY relevant question on a REALISTS head is "Can he rebuild and beat Fury in the rematch"...

A good amount of evidence suggests he can. And fortunately, we will soon know!

You have exposed yourself as a complete nut bag.. Welcome to that club!

**Weltschmerz** · 12-01-2015, 04:59 AM

Vladimir is not retired yet. No reason for this discussion.

**McGoorty** · 12-01-2015, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by Bozbay

He's in the top 10 heavyweights ever purely because he defended his title so many times. But the level of competition has been awful, always fighting smaller guys. When he finally faced some his own, or slightly taller, he got embarrassed. I don't believe Wladimir has one Hall of Famer on his resume right? Says it all.

As for as pound for pound, maybe he is in the top 30 ever. But in terms of his division, you can't even think about ranking him higher than Ali, Tyson, Lennox, Holyfield and Joe Louis. An ATG Heavyweight though, no denying.

Also, you can't match-up Wladimir against these guys in a fight. Eras are completely different. If you're comparing greatness, you have to look at accomplishments and competition.

He's in the top 10 heavyweights ever purely because he defended his title so many times.

This was one of the criteria that old timers used for Louis, in that time, no one had even come close to what Louis had done, with Wlad it has been done several times but Wlad was longer at the topo so by that criteria... I agree with you.

But the level of competition has been awful, always fighting smaller guys. When he finally faced some his own, or slightly taller, he got embarrassed. I don't believe Wladimir has one Hall of Famer on his resume right? Says it all.

I cannot argue this.

As for as pound for pound, maybe he is in the top 30 ever. But in terms of his division, you can't even think about ranking him higher than Ali, Tyson, Lennox, Holyfield and Joe Louis. An ATG Heavyweight though, no denying.

Yes that is what I feel.

Also, you can't match-up Wladimir against these guys in a fight. Eras are completely different. If you're comparing greatness, you have to look at accomplishments and competition.

This will haunt Wlad's name through the ages if future generations care.
Good post.

**Bozbay** · 12-01-2015, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Elroy1

- Almost ALL of Wladimir's championship fighters are HOF worthy opponents. There is simply no such thing as a HOFer in an era with such a dominant champion as Wlad because he doesn't allow others to shine he is so great. Tyson Fury HIMSELF isn't a HOFer yet simply for beating Wladimir and Wladimir himself exceeds HOF or ATG, those terms don't adequately describe him, more like SATG (Super-All Time Great) seems sufficient.

-Almost none of the established HOFers or ATG's could beat ANY of Wladimir's better opponents, let alone Wladimir himself.

-Ali would have never been allowed to fight as a HW in Wladimir's era, he would have got his ass busted as Cruiserweight as they were all far faster, stronger, more powerful, more atheltic and far more skilled than he was and he would have been only marginally useful as a sparring partner for even Wladimir's opponents, let alone Wladimir himself.

-Finally, there is no hard proof that Fury could NOT have beaten Wladimir anytime, but there is EXTREMELY circumstantial evidence to suggest he couldn't have. Something to the tune of a 1/10 chance for Fury. This was the best version of Fury ever seen against a version of Wlad not seen so bad since he was comebacking from being wasted. He is most certainly age ravaged, and was most certainly lazy and complacent, underestimating Fury, there can be no denying that.

- I doubt any NON-nut bag would really argue that best Wlad likely beats best Fury. The ONLY relevant question on a REALISTS head is "Can he rebuild and beat Fury in the rematch"...

A good amount of evidence suggests he can. And fortunately, we will soon know!

You have exposed yourself as a complete nut bag.. Welcome to that club!

You rank Wladimir over Ali? I believe you have joined the club also.

**McGoorty** · 12-01-2015, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Bozbay

Fury would have beaten Wladimir at any stage of his career. Stylistically, it proved to be all wrong for Wlad. His age didn't hinder him. He was hesitant to let anything go. What you have to ask yourself is, could Ali have done what Wlad did in his era? Easily, probably even better. Not a single HOF on that resume.

Well as for Fury, he now has to cement a legacy but I have no idea how he will be able to do that but maybe you are right, I always felt that a Buster Douglas at his best vs Mike Tyson at his best probably wins 8 out of ten encounters due to various attributes and its true that styles make fights.

**McGoorty** · 12-01-2015, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by -Weltschmerz-

Vladimir is not retired yet. No reason for this discussion.

Well he lost his title and he is getting old so I beg to differ.

Wlad's Place in History Discussion