Ali is overated thread

[hemichromis]

While you may not come out and say he's invincible, you do overrate him while incinuating his invincibility. Without having to list so many examples, as many of us could do, you often claim that his competition was the greatest of any fighter's in history. In actuality, his competition is, at the very least, just as questionable as any champion's.

On the issue of invincibility, you have repeatedly thwarted anyone's attempt to prove that Ali suffered legitimate losses by stating that Ali was beyond his prime. You have then claimed that had Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Berbick, etc. faced Ali during his prime, he would have beaten them easily and without much trouble. From 1966-1967 you have said, he would have beaten anybody, regardless of style. This seems to be the only time in which Ali was experiencing his prime. Any time before, when someone has pointed out Ali's trouble, you claim that Ali was "green". Any time after, when Ali suffered a difficult battle, you claim that he was no longer in his prime. This shows us, the BoxingScene community, that you basically ignore Ali's flaws and only focus on the short period of time that you have decided was his prime. There are even occassions where someone will post a very convincing argument, based on real research, to show how Ali could have lost during that short time frame where he was in his prime. He did lose rounds and show weaknesses during that time, weaknesses that great fighters would have exploited. A great example of this is against Folley, where he was losing on the cards until he tapped Folley's glass jaw and put him away. When this example comes up, you generally fly in to defend Ali by saying things like, "Ali didn't prepare for that fight!" or, "Folley was a top 40 all-time heavyweight!" and other comments that show no signs of research, or are just plain rediculous. For being the guy who always shows up when the word Ali is mentioned, you present an incredible lack of knowledge (or realistic opinions) on the subject of said champion.

I normally try to avoid offending anyone on this site in any way, so I apologize to butterfly1964 and those who found these remarks offensive. I'm afraid it just had to be said. Let's face it: by dumping excuse after excuse in Ali's defense in sight of his flaws, as well as claiming an invincibility during the shortest prime in championship history (which questions his greatness, all together), you overrate Muhammad Ali, butterfly.

if ali i his prime had the wil power heart and chin of the 'past his prime' ali and faster reactions and much better speed he would have to be one of the toughest fighters


although you could say something similar about foreman if foreman had the power and speed of the 20yearold and the heart and will of the 45 yearold you would also have an extremely tough fighter


ahh hell we are never gonna settle the who is greatest thread but that wont stop me arguing!!!!

[Brockton Lip]

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
^---(Not in order, but top 3 in my opinion)

[butterfly1964]

While you may not come out and say he's invincible, you do overrate him while incinuating his invincibility. Without having to list so many examples, as many of us could do, you often claim that his competition was the greatest of any fighter's in history. In actuality, his competition is, at the very least, just as questionable as any champion's.

On the issue of invincibility, you have repeatedly thwarted anyone's attempt to prove that Ali suffered legitimate losses by stating that Ali was beyond his prime. You have then claimed that had Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Berbick, etc. faced Ali during his prime, he would have beaten them easily and without much trouble. From 1966-1967 you have said, he would have beaten anybody, regardless of style. This seems to be the only time in which Ali was experiencing his prime. Any time before, when someone has pointed out Ali's trouble, you claim that Ali was "green". Any time after, when Ali suffered a difficult battle, you claim that he was no longer in his prime. This shows us, the BoxingScene community, that you basically ignore Ali's flaws and only focus on the short period of time that you have decided was his prime. There are even occassions where someone will post a very convincing argument, based on real research, to show how Ali could have lost during that short time frame where he was in his prime. He did lose rounds and show weaknesses during that time, weaknesses that great fighters would have exploited. A great example of this is against Folley, where he was losing on the cards until he tapped Folley's glass jaw and put him away. When this example comes up, you generally fly in to defend Ali by saying things like, "Ali didn't prepare for that fight!" or, "Folley was a top 40 all-time heavyweight!" and other comments that show no signs of research, or are just plain rediculous. For being the guy who always shows up when the word Ali is mentioned, you present an incredible lack of knowledge (or realistic opinions) on the subject of said champion.

I normally try to avoid offending anyone on this site in any way, so I apologize to butterfly1964 and those who found these remarks offensive. I'm afraid it just had to be said. Let's face it: by dumping excuse after excuse in Ali's defense in sight of his flaws, as well as claiming an invincibility during the shortest prime in championship history (which questions his greatness, all together), you overrate Muhammad Ali, butterfly.

the reson why ali had a short prime was because he was stripped of his title. if he was allowed to box, then his prime would have been alot longer. it's not ali's fault if the WBA didn't want him to box anymore. so him prime started in '66, and ended in '67 because of ther layoff.

and i have stated in the past that some fighters would give prime ali trouble(frazier, holmes, tyson, norton, liston, etc.) but i still think that more than likely he would still get the W in the end, that's all. they have a chance to beat him, but IMO the probablility is less likely than an ali win.

and ali was not loosing on points in the folley fight, why do i keep hearing that? folley won the first two rounds cause ali did nothing cause he was scared of folley's power, but once ali felt him out he swept the remaining rounds. i had it 4-2 for ali going into the seventh round.

[Frazier's 15th round]

Suzie, you should do one on Larry Holmes.

[Heckler]

if ali i his prime had the wil power heart and chin of the 'past his prime' ali and faster reactions and much better speed he would have to be one of the toughest fighters


although you could say something similar about foreman if foreman had the power and speed of the 20yearold and the heart and will of the 45 yearold you would also have an extremely tough fighter


ahh hell we are never gonna settle the who is greatest thread but that wont stop me arguing!!!!

On what basis did a prime Ali not have the will power, heart, and chin of a past his prime Ali? Because he got dropped in the early sixties as a young physically immature man? He was Physically mature in his 'prime' and thus his jaw would of been as good as it was after his layoff, your jaw doesn't become better for no apparent reason it was because his body changed. When Ali came back he tried to fight as he had done before, in vain. What you will notice is that as soon as he was tested against (probably against Bonavena)he showed heart. To say he never had heart in the late sixties is a comment without base, his heart was never TESTED.

[QueensburyRules]

now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land

* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

- - Thought boxing experts been sayin Marvin Hart was the worst next to 350lb 6 years inactive Jeffries and sick 2 years inactive Ali.

Hmmmm, Round Robin trilogies! Hart vs 350 lb Jeffries vs sick Ali, and who U got?