Ali is overated thread

[sleazyfellow]

i dont overrate ali i think hes top 3 material of course, but ur bamboozling him talk about the decisions n stuff...didnt louis get a gift decision when jersey joe beat his ass in their first fight? he went down 2 times..but ah well anyways what happend to butterfly?? he got banned r what?

[mokele]

mixed feelings

I always had mixed feelings about Ali. It was hard not to because he was such a complicated, colorful character. Anyway, I agree that Ali seemed to get a few gift decisions during his career, and the most obvious ones for me were in his fights with Jimmy Young and his 3rd fight with Norton. The 2nd Ali-Norton fight was close, and I didn't feel that Norton was robbed. However, their 1st fight was a clear win for Norton, and should not have been a split decision. the judge who voted for Ali in the 1st Norton-Ali fight was either paid under the table or threatened into scoring the fight that way.

[hemichromis]

ali may not be the greatest but he certainly was in the top 10 of the modern boxing era and possibly in the top 5

what evidence have you got about liston taking a dive

also all fighters start off fighting easy opponents, the first 20 fights of foreman make for entertaining viewing for about 30 mins!

[Frazier's 15th round]

Probably more than Foreman's first 20 fights. Foreman fought tomato cans and stumblebums all the time before he got a title shot (in both careers).

[Brassangel]

You know what? A lot of the most exciting fighters went up against 20+ Joe Nobodies at first. What separates them from any other professional fighter was their ability to crush the opposition mercilessly. I would like to see [you] walk up to any professional fighter, call them a bum, and expect to come out of it with anything less than a black eye. Foreman smashed other fighters who looked like tomato cans, because he was that much more powerful than they were. His level was many above theirs. Same with Liston, Lyle, Shavers, Frazier, etc. It's what separates a good or great professional from just another professional.

[blockhead]

ali was great but placing him above joe louis on an all time heavyweights list should be considered an act of hubris against the boxing gods.

[iwagh911]

What happend to butterfly?

[Heckler]

now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land


* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

Ali is overrated, but not for the reasons you mentioned. He is overrated because he is percieved as some kind of god thanks to the media. George Foreman wanted him to fight again when? 1976? When Ali shouldn't have even been in the ring, his management wouldn't let that happen. He beat Foreman fairly, he didn't get lucky he exposed him with a sound plan. He would beat Foreman again in a 1974 rematch, what was foreman going to do next time around? fight in a more measured fashion and Allow Ali to dictate the pace of the fight?

he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc - Decisions against young, shavers, and norton were questionable yes. But Frazier 2? your crazy if you think that was a GIFT decision.. no matter how many times i watch that fight Ali wins. It was CLOSE.

he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass - The truth is he wasn't really saved, official timer shows that he only got a few seconds extra rest. That was a young naieve cassius clay whom hadn't reached his physical peak and this is quite obvious.

liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston - total bull**** Ali boxed the ears of Liston in the first fight, he was obviously trying... in vain. If he was going to throw the match he would fake a knockout, not mysteriously quit on his stool - a move that created doubt in peoples minds. Anywhere between 66 and 74 Ali would beat any version of Liston.

You can apply this kind of ridiculous arguement to essentially anyone rocky marciano, joe louis, mike tyson all quite easily. I assume its a joke, like Monte's. Im pretty sure this is nothing more then a troll... i dont think your that ******ed.

[Heckler]

SuzieQ is 100 percent correct. Ali was given too many gift decisions. Even his loss versus Spinks was a SD, even though Ali was battered all over the ring. Basically, half the people Ali fought made him look like a fool. Doug Jones was robbed. Banks and Cooper floored him, and as mentioned, Dundee cheated to save Ali from losing. Liston didn't even bother training for the first fight, and took a dive in the second. Ali then beats such amazing competition as Brian London and literally shot Big Cat Williams. Chuvalo, a human punching bag, made Ali piss blood for a week after the fight. He then sticks his thumb in Terrell's eye three times and taunts a blind fighter. He beats up on injured, way past prime Patterson, and was getting beaten up by 35 year old Zora Folley before he got a lucky shot in.

So, he comes back, gets lucky by cutting Quarry above the eye just as Quarry started to warm up. Bonavena's akward style made Ali look clueless. He then gets his ass handed to him by Frazier, and it looked like Ali barely won a single round the whole night, except maybe the 9th. By the 5th, Frazier was just laughing at this big bum Ali. Also, Frazier was blind in one eye, and just unloaded his left hook the whole time because he couldn't see where he was aiming his right. Ali then gets back on the right track by fighting legends such as Jurgen Blin, tomato can Chuvalo once again (Ali tends to beat up on guys he already wiped out before) and I think Patterson again, as well as a shot Buster Mathis. Ken Norton breaks his jaw and was nearly robbed, earning a split decision. He then gets robbed for real the second time around.

Ali then goes on to fight Frazier, who is more concerned in his music career than boxing by then. Frazier, even though he doesn't give two ****s about boxing anymore, gets robbed of a win. Ali manages to beat up on an overrated George Foreman, who looked like a drunk bum and also had a very padded record. George, with his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer put in front of him. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, showed his pathetic excuse for stamina by tiring out after about 4 rounds. After winning the title, Ali gets knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was absolute rubbish. No boxing skills at all. Ali then fights a decent but nothing special Ron Lyle, and was getting beat before the ref prematurely stopped the fight, saving Ali once again. Frazier then beats up on Ali once again in the Thrilla, but Frazier's corner wouldn't let him out. Ali then pads his record with more bums like Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista. He even fights glass jawed Earnie Shavers, who lost to every good fighter he faced, and even some lesser fighters like Walter Santemore and Ron Stander.

On to Spinks. An amateur with 7 fights under his belt, he pounds Ali from pillar to post all night, and only gets a split. Spinks' career record is very pathetic, he even lost to a guy with a career record of 3-53-1. Ali retires, and comes back to get his butt whipped by Holmes and Berbick (another ham and egger).

And Ali gets called the greatest because he can run his mouth. Joe Louis would have dispatched of him in one round.

The fact that you always refer to Ali as a bum and constantly focus on negative aspects of his career and go on to say that Joe Louis would dispatch him in one round shows how ****en ridiculous you really are. He beats Ali up in Manila? Did you even watch the ****en fight? Was Ali the one getting beat from corner to corner in round 14 without retaliating? - Frazier lost, and they both inflicted ridiculous punishment on eachother.. get the **** over it. You even go on to use the Larry Holmes fight against him? well ****...

Frazier sucks massive **** because he got a beat down like the little ***** he was against Foreman in the rematch, he only lasted a few rounds in the first match which shows how inferior he is to Ali. He had a **** jaw and was wobbled by Ali throughout his career and had to be saved from the light hitting Ali in round two of his rematch. Before he beat Ali he was a nobody, Ali made him... now look at him, hes nothing more then a blind ass moaning little girl that continually cries about how Ali was so mean! No-one respects him, he was nothing more then an uncle tom

- We can apply this ridiculous slanted attitude to any fighter.

[Verstyle]

What happend to butterfly?

i told him if he stayed off for a week he would get 50million. buuuuuut the day it was started he lost cause when the bet was on he was still online for another 30min