Fighters who declined rapidly.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=IMDAZED;16181302]Big difference between Jones and Hamed. Jones was past 35. His decline wasn't because he relied on his athletic gifts, it happened cuz he was finished. Skill-wise he was another planet compared to Hamed. Was as he as technically skilled as a Mayweather? No, but he wasn't a Zab Judah either.[/QUOTE

Roy definitely was in another class technically compared to Hamed. When Roy broke the rule book it was deliberate, and because it allowed him greater proficiency...much like Ali.

Hamed was a rarity...Real KO power gets one real far in the lower weight divisions, especially when coupled with speed. Unfortunately, unlike a guy like Camacho, Hamed didn't really have technical moxy. When Barrera took him apart, in addition to not taking the fight seriously, it exposed him. There were times that guys like Camacho were lazy, but they had a lot more technical ability and hence, consistancy. No such luck for Hamed.

I still don't know when Roy lost a step, as opposed to a country mile lol...Tarver really screwed Roy up when he wouldn't go for his feints, but it would be naive to think that Roy had not lost a lot when he came back down from fighing Ruiz.

[IMDAZED]

[QUOTE=billeau2;16182839]

Big difference between Jones and Hamed. Jones was past 35. His decline wasn't because he relied on his athletic gifts, it happened cuz he was finished. Skill-wise he was another planet compared to Hamed. Was as he as technically skilled as a Mayweather? No, but he wasn't a Zab Judah either.[/QUOTE

Roy definitely was in another class technically compared to Hamed. When Roy broke the rule book it was deliberate, and because it allowed him greater proficiency...much like Ali.

Hamed was a rarity...Real KO power gets one real far in the lower weight divisions, especially when coupled with speed. Unfortunately, unlike a guy like Camacho, Hamed didn't really have technical moxy. When Barrera took him apart, in addition to not taking the fight seriously, it exposed him. There were times that guys like Camacho were lazy, but they had a lot more technical ability and hence, consistancy. No such luck for Hamed.

I still don't know when Roy lost a step, as opposed to a country mile lol...Tarver really screwed Roy up when he wouldn't go for his feints, but it would be naive to think that Roy had not lost a lot when he came back down from fighing Ruiz.

Beating Roy Jones wasn't as simple as not going for feints.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=IMDAZED;16182847]

Beating Roy Jones wasn't as simple as not going for feints.

you said it yourself in your analysis of roy...i tend not think roy was as far gone as most. It was a perfect storm, tarver was emotionally pumped and was not intimidated. the feints were just part of it but tarver was not put on his heels.

[IMDAZED]

[QUOTE=billeau2;16183002]

you said it yourself in your analysis of roy...i tend not think roy was as far gone as most. It was a perfect storm, tarver was emotionally pumped and was not intimidated. the feints were just part of it but tarver was not put on his heels.

No, I didn't say anything like that.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=IMDAZED;16183794]

No, I didn't say anything like that.

Let me clarify: You said at a certain point Roy was simply past it. When Roy was past it he was more vulnerable...something implied by this statement no? When he was more vulnerable he was generally more susceptable. Being more susceptable made it a part of the problem when Tarver was not put off by his fakes, which usually put guys on their heels for Roy, or more or less causing them to back off. Tarver was not backed off.

Evidence of when guys are backed off can be seen in fights such as the Toney fight where he basically has Toney flinching at a certain point...Toney is unable to mount an attack when backed off. This is part of what a good feint does, it makes the person attacking think too much and hesitate.

Hope this clarifies this for you.

[IMDAZED]

[QUOTE=billeau2;16184135]

Let me clarify: You said at a certain point Roy was simply past it. When Roy was past it he was more vulnerable...something implied by this statement no? When he was more vulnerable he was generally more susceptable. Being more susceptable made it a part of the problem when Tarver was not put off by his fakes, which usually put guys on their heels for Roy, or more or less causing them to back off. Tarver was not backed off.

Evidence of when guys are backed off can be seen in fights such as the Toney fight where he basically has Toney flinching at a certain point...Toney is unable to mount an attack when backed off. This is part of what a good feint does, it makes the person attacking think too much and hesitate.

Hope this clarifies this for you.

He had Toney flinching because he had hit him so many times. Feints don't work unless you're landing too. It was Tarver's patience and power, along with his southpaw counterpunching style and long dimensions that made him so tough for Jones.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=IMDAZED;16184166]

He had Toney flinching because he had hit him so many times. Feints don't work unless you're landing too. It was Tarver's patience and power, along with his southpaw counterpunching style and long dimensions that made him so tough for Jones.

Yes, thats very observant of you that feints only work when you are hitting the person! I guess the fact that Tarver had patience and power meant that this overwhelmed Roy...totally...how silly of me!

Gee, I feel so ****** all of a sudden...

[IMDAZED]

Yes, thats very observant of you that feints only work when you are hitting the person! I guess the fact that Tarver had patience and power meant that this overwhelmed Roy...totally...how silly of me!

Gee, I feel so ****** all of a sudden...

Stop with the strawman argument. If you have nothing else to add, say so. You tried to somehow connect my point about Roy's decline with Tarver not going for feints. I'm pointing out that the bigger issue was that feint or not, Jones just couldn't jump in against Tarver, not without the fear of being counterpunched. Which is, incidentally, what would happen in the rematch anyway.