Pea, Roy or Floyd?

[soul_survivor]

It is irrelevant to you, but not to me. And it should not be. Nothing suggests that Pea would not become less offensive with age, just like Floyd, Hop and a million others did. And in fact you then proceed to make your arguments mostly based on fights Floyd fought at an age at which Pea was busy snorting coke.

I don't think you are making a great choice of fights to compare. Pea fought JC and co before he was 30, in his first two weight classes (35 and 40). Floyd fought those 3 at 30, 30something and 38 in his 4th and 5th weight (47 and 54) class De La Hoya "beat" Pea. But ok... I guess that is what you need to have PBF and RJ behind Pac and Hop

Wait huh, we've gone from comparing Pea and Floyd to bringing in Pac and Hop? That's irrelevant to this argument. Why'd you bring it up?

And the age argument IS irrelevant, every fighter, in fact every human being ages differently and reach their primes at different ages. Mayweather was at his absolute peak at 30, a better fighter than when he was 25. Whitaker, because so much of his style was based on reflexes and pure speed, much like Ali and RJJ, peaked much earlier, in his early 20s. Age is irrelevant comparing fighters.

You can talk about longevity and yes, May beats Whitaker in that department but it helps fighting once or twice a year with modern pharmaceuticals at your disposal.

And the reason I mentioned their respective best opponents is to compare these guys fighting at their very best against the very best, it's not my fault Mayweather didn't fight a great fighter till he was 30. But it's how the best are always compared: best v best.

[Jc8804]

Roy
Pernell
Floyd

[BKM-2010]

I don't want to prod a hornets nest so lets just say the notion that mayweather won that pac fight without much problem is....debatable. I happen to feel that fight could have gone either way. One thing for certain is that tape shows that both guys got hit and that neither guy dominated. Unlike most of mayweather's opponents pac's aggression while not steller, was relatively effective in spots.

If you feel pac was in his prime that is a minority opinion. You would have to account for his loss to Marquez, a roy Jones is down! type loss....You would have to account for the prime age of a fighter in the light to middle weight classes, who had been in some real wars of attrition, and you would have to account for some of Pacs later wins like against Cotto where catch weights had a real impact (theres a reason Cotto hates pac).

There is however not much that can defend the notion that Mayweather's win against Pacquio is better than a DOMINANT win over the likes of Chavez, Toney, or Hopkins....Unlike with Mayweather, in the case of these wins, there was no question about who dominated, despite the fact that the judges were corrupt in the Chavez fight. You could make a case that Pee fought a Chavez that was perhaps not prime...For what its worth (not much) I could buy that argument lol. But I also think one has to look at Pete differently than Jones and Mayweather...two guys who stack up fairly well, if we take post Tarver Roy as a fighter fighting under different circumstances.

Defense for Sweet Pea was...as the saying goes 'not your mother's defense!" I.e. you know how when you buy cookies made in a french Boulangerie they are good in a different way than mom's tollhouse cookies lol. We are talking about knowing you caught him grimacing and just before the punch touches his skin and suddenly geting hit with a a counter. We are talking throwing five punches and hitting air, then getting caught with a perfect jab after the flurry as Whitaker stands in front of you. Pete used D to De-moralize and unbalance...much like Ali actually. So if Pete threw five punches that round and hit you square with four...you couldn't touch him with anything.

Part of the reason Whitaker and early Mayweather (mostly at 135) were so good is that both guys understood what a legitimate counter punch is...and does. It does its work as the opponent is punching, not after when the opponent can brace for impact. Later mayweather generally catches after the opponent completes the punch and he sits there admiring his work...early Mayweather would catch one before the punch completed and he would be out of there. Speaking of which: one thing that makes Robinson so damn good is that when he hit you with a counter he then hit you a few more times at least! But I digress.

I wasn't saying Pacquiao was in his prime mate, but I maintain again that a win over Pacquiao in May of 2015 was huge especially for a 38 year old Mayweather. How quickly people forget that he was #2 pound for pound belt holder and on a somewhat historic run where only one man was able to best him in nearly 10 years(Marquez). It is the biggest win on all 3 resumes easily, imo.

If people nitpick Mayweather's biggest win, then the same HAS to be done to Roy Jones Jr's. Hopkins as we know was very green and not even close to the same fighter he became in the late 90s and 00s. James Toney was said to be a shadow of himself due to weight cutting issues, I don't personally take that very seriously but it is a highly debated subject and it discredits both of Roy's wins. And lets face it, Roy's entire greatness relies on those two names in his resume.

And I maintain that Floyd won that fight without much trouble. He got stunned in the 4th round for a moment but was never hurt for the rest of the fight, did not have to dig deep and pretty much took all of Pac's effectiveness away from him with his footwork and counter punching. Far more dominant win than Pernell's "win" over Chavez.

[BKM-2010]

You can talk about longevity and yes, May beats Whitaker in that department but it helps fighting once or twice a year with modern pharmaceuticals at your disposal.

It also helps not to become a crackhead to throw your career away, to put it bluntly. Instead Floyd took another route and stayed healthy and in shape his entire career, even working out when he was in prison.

[Weebler I]

2/3 failed drug tests and the other was suspiciously IV'd for the FOTC.

I'll go with Sweetpea on the grounds he only failed his test for cocaine.

[billeau2]

I wasn't saying Pacquiao was in his prime mate, but I maintain again that a win over Pacquiao in May of 2015 was huge especially for a 38 year old Mayweather. How quickly people forget that he was #2 pound for pound belt holder and on a somewhat historic run where only one man was able to best him in nearly 10 years(Marquez). It is the biggest win on all 3 resumes easily, imo.

If people nitpick Mayweather's biggest win, then the same HAS to be done to Roy Jones Jr's. Hopkins as we know was very green and not even close to the same fighter he became in the late 90s and 00s. James Toney was said to be a shadow of himself due to weight cutting issues, I don't personally take that very seriously but it is a highly debated subject and it discredits both of Roy's wins. And lets face it, Roy's entire greatness relies on those two names in his resume.

And I maintain that Floyd won that fight without much trouble. He got stunned in the 4th round for a moment but was never hurt for the rest of the fight, did not have to dig deep and pretty much took all of Pac's effectiveness away from him with his footwork and counter punching. Far more dominant win than Pernell's "win" over Chavez.

You have a very different interpretation of things than I do. Its all good.

[soul_survivor]

It also helps not to become a crackhead to throw your career away, to put it bluntly. Instead Floyd took another route and stayed healthy and in shape his entire career, even working out when he was in prison.

whatever, like I said, longevity isn't the only thing that defines careers

[BKM-2010]

whatever, like I said, longevity isn't the only thing that defines careers

Nobody said it was, but it's a pretty significant aspect to consider and the fact that Whitaker was so dumb that he turned into a crackhead instead of continuing to build up his legacy is something I hold against him. Frankly I find it surprising that some people rank him above Mayweather.

[wmute]

Wait huh, we've gone from comparing Pea and Floyd to bringing in Pac and Hop? That's irrelevant to this argument. Why'd you bring it up?

Because you did.

And the age argument IS irrelevant, every fighter, in fact every human being ages differently and reach their primes at different ages. Mayweather was at his absolute peak at 30, a better fighter than when he was 25. Whitaker, because so much of his style was based on reflexes and pure speed, much like Ali and RJJ, peaked much earlier, in his early 20s. Age is irrelevant comparing fighters.

It sounds like what does not match your opinion is irrelevant... but ok...
You think Mayweather was at his absolute peak at 30? That is debatable (I don't know anyone who thinks Mayweather peaked at 47. INot at the time at least) but ok... you mentioned 2 fights which happened at age 35 and 38? Still prime? Wow.

You can talk about longevity and yes, May beats Whitaker in that department but it helps fighting once or twice a year with modern pharmaceuticals at your disposal.

Let me make sure I understand this. You are looking at one guy who does not drink and a cokehead and you need to bring in modern pharma to explain the difference...

And the reason I mentioned their respective best opponents is to compare these guys fighting at their very best against the very best, it's not my fault Mayweather didn't fight a great fighter till he was 30. But it's how the best are always compared: best v best.

I think most people would rank Oscar and Tito above Ramirez. So you have to throw them in with the rest. Pea's record is then 1-3-1. But PBF looked stiff... lol

[wmute]

I wasn't saying Pacquiao was in his prime mate, but I maintain again that a win over Pacquiao in May of 2015 was huge especially for a 38 year old Mayweather. How quickly people forget that he was #2 pound for pound belt holder and on a somewhat historic run where only one man was able to best him in nearly 10 years(Marquez). It is the biggest win on all 3 resumes easily, imo.

If people nitpick Mayweather's biggest win, then the same HAS to be done to Roy Jones Jr's. Hopkins as we know was very green and not even close to the same fighter he became in the late 90s and 00s. James Toney was said to be a shadow of himself due to weight cutting issues, I don't personally take that very seriously but it is a highly debated subject and it discredits both of Roy's wins. And lets face it, Roy's entire greatness relies on those two names in his resume.

And I maintain that Floyd won that fight without much trouble. He got stunned in the 4th round for a moment but was never hurt for the rest of the fight, did not have to dig deep and pretty much took all of Pac's effectiveness away from him with his footwork and counter punching. Far more dominant win than Pernell's "win" over Chavez.

I strongly agree with the bold. I am seeing some NSB type of double standards here. Sad.

But I strongly disagree on Roy's greatness being based on those 2 wins.