Hagler was Absolutely the WEAKEST of the Big 4.

[The plunger man]

No fighter has God given talent. No fighter in history walked into the gym on their first day and was World Title material. You are under the impression that Hagler was just some bumbling brawler. EVERY fighter worked for what they accomplished. Hagler was robbed at least twice in his career. Almost 3 times with his fight against Duran.

Some fighters are natural compared to others...so again your wrong, some fighters just adapt much quicker and can have just better all round ability ...so in your argument ever fighter should be the same and should become as good as an Ali or Leonard , so Leonard had quicker hands and feet than a danny Garcia but how is that so , some fighters are natural at what they do...others have to work twice as hard just to get to championship level....so again mrwop I never said hagler never had ability I said he had to work more to get the levee he got to...leonard of course needed to enter a gym and learn the basics but he adapted far quicker and had a natural speed in hand and foot that 99% of others don't possess ...so your mrwop your wrong...it's a God gifted talent

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Some fighters are natural compared to others...so again your wrong, some fighters just adapt much quicker and can have just better all round ability ...so in your argument ever fighter should be the same and should become as good as an Ali or Leonard , so Leonard had quicker hands and feet than a danny Garcia but how is that so , some fighters are natural at what they do...others have to work twice as hard just to get to championship level....so again mrwop I never said hagler never had ability I said he had to work more to get the levee he got to...leonard of course needed to enter a gym and learn the basics but he adapted far quicker and had a natural speed in hand and foot that 99% of others don't possess ...so your mrwop your wrong...it's a God gifted talent

That's just called having a certain style. Could Ali brawl with Foreman? Could Leonard outbox Hearns or brawl with Duran?

99% of fighters don't have fast hands and feet? Show me proven statistics because I can name plenty of fighters that had/have fast hands and feet that make up a lot more than 1%.

Not everyone could attain the level of Ali and Leonard because not everyone has the same mental capacity as them. People learn in different ways and Ali/Leonard took really well to boxing.

You just said it yourself. They had to go to the gym and work but not as much as others you say. That's not God given that's called a quick learner. God given is where you didn't have to work for it at all you have had it since day 1.

[The plunger man]

That's just called having a certain style. Could Ali brawl with Foreman? Could Leonard outbox Hearns or brawl with Duran?

99% of fighters don't have fast hands and feet? Show me proven statistics because I can name plenty of fighters that had/have fast hands and feet that make up a lot more than 1%.

Not everyone could attain the level of Ali and Leonard because not everyone has the same mental capacity as them. People learn in different ways and Ali/Leonard took really well to boxing.

You just said it yourself. They had to go to the gym and work but not as much as others you say. That's not God given that's called a quick learner. God given is where you didn't have to work for it at all you have had it since day 1.

Nothing to do with quick learner you can train all you like but some fighters will always have that special gift that takes them that bit further ...that's God given ...and God given means your just that bit more gifted at that aspect...now if you want to try and twist it's up to you...Leonard which in my first discussion is special , one is because he achieved more in a boxing ring than 99% percent of other boxers, secondly he moved up weight over so many divisions and was the man, and beat other fighters who were considered ATG...you could go to a boxing gym for 10 years and never have the natural ability of what Ray Leonard has...the same reason why Joe Louis had that kind of punching power ....punchers are born not made and that makes it a natural ability which then makes it god given....

[The plunger man]

That's just called having a certain style. Could Ali brawl with Foreman? Could Leonard outbox Hearns or brawl with Duran?

99% of fighters don't have fast hands and feet? Show me proven statistics because I can name plenty of fighters that had/have fast hands and feet that make up a lot more than 1%.

Not everyone could attain the level of Ali and Leonard because not everyone has the same mental capacity as them. People learn in different ways and Ali/Leonard took really well to boxing.

You just said it yourself. They had to go to the gym and work but not as much as others you say. That's not God given that's called a quick learner. God given is where you didn't have to work for it at all you have had it since day 1.

The same reason why pele or Lionel mesi are considered gods at football....a natural ...that's god given

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Nothing to do with quick learner you can train all you like but some fighters will always have that special gift that takes them that bit further ...that's God given ...and God given means your just that bit more gifted at that aspect...now if you want to try and twist it's up to you...Leonard which in my first discussion is special , one is because he achieved more in a boxing ring than 99% percent of other boxers, secondly he moved up weight over so many divisions and was the man, and beat other fighters who were considered ATG...you could go to a boxing gym for 10 years and never have the natural ability of what Ray Leonard has...the same reason why Joe Louis had that kind of punching power ....punchers are born not made and that makes it a natural ability which then makes it god given....

Sugar Ray Robinson is the p4p greatest of all time and wasn't anything special when he first stepped into a gym. You just hate Hagler so you are making up all of this bulshlt about God given talent. Trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with you look like they are twisting your words around.

Every fighter has an inclination towards a certain aspect whether it be power, speed, footwork, etc. It's called genetics. Joe Louis didn't walk in the gym able to knock Max Schmeling out. Doesn't work like that. Hard work beats talent.

[The plunger man]

Sugar Ray Robinson is the p4p greatest of all time and wasn't anything special when he first stepped into a gym. You just hate Hagler so you are making up all of this bulshlt about God given talent. Trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with you look like they are twisting your words around.

Every fighter has an inclination towards a certain aspect whether it be power, speed, footwork, etc. It's called genetics. Joe Louis didn't walk in the gym able to knock Max Schmeling out. Doesn't work like that. Hard work beats talent.

I don't hate hagler that's bollocks do I hold him in the same regard as leoanrd , duran ..no I dont....no hard work does not beat talent as long as you use your talent .. if you haven't got it you haven't got it ...what beats hard work is hard work with talent, look dago talent is talent its a simple as that and if you have natural abilty at something and as long as you dedicate yourself to it then your always go further than the guy who just works hard at it..thats the way it and that's why you have levels in walks of life....Jesus Beethoven could play the piano at at 5 and was stone deaf and your saying he isn't naturally gifted ? GTFOH ...your wrong on this dago...some people in life are just special and were born to do what they chose in life...most people don't find what there talent is in life and only are lucky to do so

[The plunger man]

Sugar Ray Robinson is the p4p greatest of all time and wasn't anything special when he first stepped into a gym. You just hate Hagler so you are making up all of this bulshlt about God given talent. Trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with you look like they are twisting your words around.

Every fighter has an inclination towards a certain aspect whether it be power, speed, footwork, etc. It's called genetics. Joe Louis didn't walk in the gym able to knock Max Schmeling out. Doesn't work like that. Hard work beats talent.

That's ur opinion and I dont care if u agree with it or not....it's a forum and it's suppose to have opposing opinions.....u see it your way I see it mine that's the way it is

[Ray Corso]

My point about their first 20 bouts was that Hagler fought who he fought because he turned pro with a 50 bout amateur career. He was tested around the 20th bout with an undefeated Seales. Leonard turned pro with national & inter-national experience with 3 times the bouts as Hagler had. Leonards people stayed with weak comp for his first 20 or so. That was a point I was making you must have "read over it"!
Why do make light of Antuofermo Hamsho and Monroe? These guys were tough fights for anyone, Leonard never fought these types of individuals. Just because skill levels aren't as high as upper tier opponents those men were tough and game as hell and in Antuofermo case one of the toughest fighters ever.
I pick Hagler over Ray because I think his style can be successful against Leonard. When they fought Hagler was clearly a step slower and an aged fighter. It is what it is and neither man was prime and that situation favored Leonards methods.
As to size Leonard could have fought at 154 or 160 earlier than he did. At 5'10" and a body type that could hold those weights he would have been stronger than the 147 Leonard but Hagler was there!

Ray

[JAB5239]

Sugar Ray Robinson is the p4p greatest of all time and wasn't anything special when he first stepped into a gym. You just hate Hagler so you are making up all of this bulshlt about God given talent. Trying to make anyone who doesn't agree with you look like they are twisting your words around.

Every fighter has an inclination towards a certain aspect whether it be power, speed, footwork, etc. It's called genetics. Joe Louis didn't walk in the gym able to knock Max Schmeling out. Doesn't work like that. Hard work beats talent.

It's works both ways in my opinion. Frazier beating Ali sides with you and there are plenty of other examples as well just as there are of talent beating hard work. Styles make fights, but Will and determination decide them. That is of course just my opinion.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I don't hate hagler that's bollocks do I hold him in the same regard as leoanrd , duran ..no I dont....no hard work does not beat talent as long as you use your talent .. if you haven't got it you haven't got it ...what beats hard work is hard work with talent, look dago talent is talent its a simple as that and if you have natural abilty at something and as long as you dedicate yourself to it then your always go further than the guy who just works hard at it..thats the way it and that's why you have levels in walks of life....Jesus Beethoven could play the piano at at 5 and was stone deaf and your saying he isn't naturally gifted ? GTFOH ...your wrong on this dago...some people in life are just special and were born to do what they chose in life...most people don't find what there talent is in life and only are lucky to do so

Teddy Atlas once said when asked if Mike Tyson had natural talent, "He didn't walk in the gym like that." Boxing is completely different from music. My family is very musically inclined and I taught myself multiple instruments from multiple families. Your argument is now baseless as you had to bring a topic which you know very little about into the equation.

A fighter with natural ability is someone like Rocky Graziano. As animals we fight on instinct. Instinctive fighting is aggressive, not out-boxing your opponent.