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Originally posted by sonnyboyx2
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You must post for pure shock value. No way in hell you truly believe even half of the dumb syht you post -
Monzon is vulnerable to a lefhook counter when he misses with his slow overhand right. If he is not smart enough to lay off this punch (one of his favorites) Robinson might just kill him with the lefhook. If he opens him up with the hook, other punches will follow. Robinson hardly ever threw one at a time.
Robinson has to be smart enough to fight a little lower to bring Monzon's overhand right out. Is he smart enough? Or can he find other cracks in the armor to exploit without fighting differently?Comment
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Hagler is leading the poll just wondering when do must people view Marvin's peak?Comment
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Great thread and discussion...
My 2 cents
Ray robinson is great but in terms of just middleweights, I can't have him higher than Monzon and Hagler,,,, monzon and hagler would never lose to guys like fullmer, Lamotta, basilio... It's nothing against Ray, but at middleweight he was up in weight and past prime.. I would rank him number 3, I just don't see him beating true middleweight greats like hagler and monzon...
My vote is for hagler... I think from late 70s to early 80s the guy was unstoppable, and I don't think he would ever lose to guys like fullmer, etcComment
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to some degree he seemed to get tight in certain situations such as the first fight with vito,duran and the leonard fight. If you use age as a reason for Marvin's loss to leonard robinson's losses at middleweight to fullmer,basilio could be contributed to age as well. His lone loss to lamotta he weighed 144lbs for. Some people would say Jake was worthy to be on this poll as he was ducked prior to winning the title.Originally posted by Sugar Adam Ali View PostComment
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That's all fine and good, but if we are talking about strictly middleweight, Ray robinson wouldn't beat hagler or Monzon..Originally posted by rightsideup View Post
Ray may be the greatest ever, but his tenure at middleweight was not the best version of Ray.., it was the best version of monzon and hagler....
Hagler post-Hearns would be a version that Ray could beat but not hagler that went thru minter and Hearns....Comment
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You may be right on robinson's physical peak being at welterweight but most his fame comes from his middleweight tenure. What I find remarkable about hagler is he developed a dislike of hearns and his mindset was he could walk thru Tommy's best punches to stop him. Very,very determinedComment
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sYeah, hagler got screwed over early in his career, and was avoided for a title shot for many years, and when he finally landed one he got screwed on a draw...Originally posted by rightsideup View Post
His second crack for a title vs minter, hagler had to go into enemy territory and knew he couldn't let it go to the scorecards... Hagler would not be denied that night and basically beat the hell out of minter,,,
Hagler thought he should be a superstar, but was still in the shadow of leonard, hearns, Duran... He landed the Duran fight, thinking this would make him a true star, but even though he won, the critical acclaim went to Duran for being able to hang with hagler... So hagler still had a chip on his shoulder, and much like the minter fight, he was not going to be denied and was willing to walk thru hell to get the win....
Hagler in peak form is basically a man possessed and will not be denied.. He is a terminatorComment
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The part I have put in red is without question. Absolute physical peak is eighteen years old. Robinson's 85-89 amateur fights plus two to three years as a pro is about where his peak should have crested, considering the frequency and grade of his opponents. Maybe it lasts another 2-3 years. That means he was already leaving his peak behind by the time he was reaching for middleweight.Originally posted by Sugar Adam Ali View Post
Your other observations are interesting.
Sometimes I have thought Hagler would tear Basilio's face off like paper mache. But then I think why would he, when Ray didn't, who I am sure punched harder, unless Marvin has some kind of special medicine that Ray did not have for men who cut easily?
Certainly Marvin would present big problems for the middleweight Robby that we got to see, and his busy-ness would be a big part of that big problem.
However, Marvin has a techinical issue Ray is bound to exploit. Prime Marvin bounced forward. He did not just bounce a little, he bounced high because he was confident and it was part of his rhythm. When you are in the air you cannot do anything until you come down. After you do, you then have to turn to do anything back to the man who has sidestepped.
I feel Ray, who loved to sidestep and punch anyway, would be able to time this bounce with great success. Unless Marvin cuts it out he is likely to get hammered frequently. But if he cuts it out, Ray has already taken him out of his rhythm, which is seldom good for a fighter.
Even with this exploitable gap in defense I feel it would be a close fight and Marvin might win anyway. No walkover here for anyone.Last edited by The Old LefHook; 06-18-2015, 08:24 AM.Comment
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