If SRR beat Maxim.

[billeau2]

Basilio is a little sloppy. He compensates for lack of skill and one-shot power with guts. He really was a Walker-type fighter w/o the Walker talent. I do believe you have experience from Martial Arts w/ guys who were just THAT tough. And probably in your day you couldn't make it to the top w/o being tough.

Boxing isn't that way anymore, so people have lost perspective. And as a result dismiss Carmen. They just say Ray was old and over-confident. I'm the first o say Carmen won rounds he didn't deserve because the judges liked his gameness. It was like Japanese MMA where if you take your beating well, you get consolation points, especially if you rally back (effectively or not).

As far as Ray and Jake are concerned. There's talk, I believe supported by the Press, that some of Jake's losses were actually wins. Similarly, he'd get wins outside of NYC (where he ran afoul of the mob) for gutsy performances that could have gone the other way.

In either event, Ray won the first fight by out-boxing Jake. And loss the second by, heroically, bringing the fight to the 15 pound heavier LaMotta. That's as far as my research has taken me at this time. But I feel the first fight, LaMotta was too easy to out-box. And the last fight, LaMotta was all but done w/ Boxing.

If somewhere in between 2 and 6 Ray won, even if the same size as Jake (not bigger), wouldn't that be his best win?

Again, people (i can't remember who) have said the Abrams and Olson fights were Ray's peak. But those guys are clearly a tier below LaMotta and Gavilan.

And just a reminder about Robinson's size: before he won the Ww Championship he beat a prominent Middleweight. That tells me he was depending on his size advantage against Gavilan.

Yeah toughness indeed... One tough onion! LOL (he was an onion farmer). He did parlay it well.

Robinson was big welter...just was. So he could always fight middle weight, even when he was ensconsed in the welter division. So yeah it was one of his less sexy advantages... Along with the speed! the dancing! the reflexes! there was his size. The fact that when he fought La Motta he did so as a Middle is only something that matters when we look at the issue through the prizm I created. The physicality of LaMotta was known...and he certainly fought epic battles with Ray Robinson. Robinson could not compete using size against La Motta either.

[billeau2]

The third depending on how you scored a fight was considered close and again their fifth. No outcries of robberies, just close fights.





Robinson had an advantage against Gavilan, it was slight, but in almost all his contests at WW he had the height or reach advantage.



Don't quite understand this point.



Robinson did meet Docusen? Timeframe makes facing Cocoa Kid and Burley a possibility. Others are fanciful suggestions.

Great to see you post here again Joe! Wish you would post more often, miss your insights.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Robinson had an advantage against Gavilan, it was slight, but in almost all his contests at WW he had the height or reach advantage.

That's not true. In heighth and reach the advantage was minor, but Ray was effectively speaking, a Middleweight. More of his fights were occurring north of 147, and his most notable opponents were there.

Consider:

1) He had already fought 4 or 5 of his bouts with LaMotta.
2) His legendary fight w/ Artie Levine (whom he recalled as the hardest hitting opponent he ever met) occurred immediately before he won the Welterweight title.
3) His notorious win over Georgie Abrams came about a year and a half before his first fight with Gavilan.
4) Both of his fights with Gavilan were followed by a Middleweight bout: the latter was a title-fight eliminator to compete for the championship.

Gavilan, for his part, wouldn't make the (ill-fated) jump to Middleweight until several years later.

I suspect it's possible that the competitiveness of those fights could have been due to Robinson struggling to make weight. There are other possibilities. But that's one that would be supported by the evidence we have.

Don't quite understand this point.

I might be a little rough on Ray. He wasn't that soft.

But those are all guys who did exceptionally well when things were going their way, but quickly crumbled when challenged.

You can add Julian Jackson, Cleveland Williams, Frank Bruno and Rigodeaux to the list.

It's nature: prey animals tend to be more explosive, but mentally weaker; predators tend to be stronger, and mentally resilient. It's a numbers game.

I'm tempted to make a comparison to any of the dogs or wolves I've owned (often ones that were abused and needed rehab) to all the ****** deer I've hunted. But I can do one better: Compare horses to your house cat. No cat can match a horse for athleticism, not even close. But we all know what happens when a horse breaks a leg, while cats are known for having 9 lives.
Most vets I know complain they have relatively low success rates w/ cats because owners never know they've been chronically ill until they're within hours of death. They show virtually no signs of illness because they have tremendous pain tolerance.

Robinson did meet Docusen? Timeframe makes facing Cocoa Kid and Burley a possibility. Others are fanciful suggestions.

Really? Do you mind explaining why? They were active for many of the same years.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Yeah toughness indeed... One tough onion! LOL (he was an onion farmer). He did parlay it well.

Robinson was big welter...just was. So he could always fight middle weight, even when he was ensconsed in the welter division. So yeah it was one of his less sexy advantages... Along with the speed! the dancing! the reflexes! there was his size. The fact that when he fought La Motta he did so as a Middle is only something that matters when we look at the issue through the prizm I created. The physicality of LaMotta was known...and he certainly fought epic battles with Ray Robinson. Robinson could not compete using size against La Motta either.

Until he could. He finally matched LaMotta for size and could out-brawl him.


Another great post.

Yeah, Ray always made Ww, apparently, with no issue. He managed his weight cuts well, and was smart enough to exploit the rules.

He really was a Junior Middleweight, anyway. And often, in those Middleweight contests, gave up a few pounds to his opponents. Seldom did it matter. He was still the winner. Even the Abrams fights, unless I can see it, I don't put too much faith in Abrams being robbed. A lot of times, just beating the odds was good enough for fans (and judges, sadly) to throw a guy pitty points. Just like MMA in Japan. Points for trying.

But Ray definitely, started filling into that frame. He clearly was as big or bigger than LaMotta. He was way bigger than Basillio. As I have said before, Greb and Walker was smaller and fighting Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights, why don't we hold Robinson tothe same standard? Because we would have missed out on the the flashy KOs?

[joeandthebums]

That's not true. In heighth and reach the advantage was minor, but Ray was effectively speaking, a Middleweight. More of his fights were occurring north of 147, and his most notable opponents were there.

Yes Robinson was no longer naturally at the 147lbs limit, but boiling down for a few days he could make the limit - in effect what is norm for modern fighters.

Gavilan himself also came in over the WW limit in fights during similar period. It's common of the period as a fighter aged or had to work on last few pounds for the fights that mattered.

Agreed on Robinson meeting more MWs, he was slowly treading a path towards the title and some what understandably perhaps given his history he wanted to hold the WW title until he got his shot.

I suspect it's possible that the competitiveness of those fights could have been due to Robinson struggling to make weight.

Sure the fight was competitive, but that does seem to have snowballed through the years. Robinson dominated Gavilan, not being able to knock him out being on slight against his performance on the whole.

But those are all guys who did exceptionally well when things were going their way, but quickly crumbled when challenged.

Are you saying Robinson crumbled when challenged, had a weak mentality. Examples please.

Really? Do you mind explaining why? They were active for many of the same years.

Yes they were active for many years together but using Williams as an example, when and why would Robinson have fought him? There is not a logical time or reason for him to do so.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Are you saying Robinson crumbled when challenged, had a weak mentality. Examples please.

I'd certainly put him above the others I referenced. But he definitely struggled with strong, physical fighters, or simply fighters who wouldn't yield to his offense.

Excuses are regularly made: the Maxim fight was too hot, he was old when fighting Turpin, Fuller, Basillio. The punchers he faced would have clipped anybody...

All of that is true, but it's also exaggerated. He was much more comfortable fighting smaller, out-gunned opponents than he was hunting challenges. He reached his ceiling against LaMotta, maybe Maxim. And that's is nothing to be ashamed of, but again unbecoming of the guy we call best ever P4P.

That accolade just doesn't hold up when you compare him to others who really did test themselves.

Yes they were active for many years together but using Williams as an example, when and why would Robinson have fought him? There is not a logical time or reason for him to do so.

Yeah, I won't rule out that the timing wasn't right for some fights that look like they could have happened. But that doesn't prove Robinson fought everyone he could, it was a career with no stones left unturned.

Look at Greb and Walker's record, or even Duran's. There's clearly a different degree of ambition. Those fighters MADE fights happen. Do you really think Robinson was hunting down the best opponents?
In the mid-late 40's what was stopping him from fighting Lytell, Burley or Williams?
It looks like his being preoccupied with fighting smaller opponents had something to do with it.

[billeau2]

Until he could. He finally matched LaMotta for size and could out-brawl him.


Another great post.

Yeah, Ray always made Ww, apparently, with no issue. He managed his weight cuts well, and was smart enough to exploit the rules.

He really was a Junior Middleweight, anyway. And often, in those Middleweight contests, gave up a few pounds to his opponents. Seldom did it matter. He was still the winner. Even the Abrams fights, unless I can see it, I don't put too much faith in Abrams being robbed. A lot of times, just beating the odds was good enough for fans (and judges, sadly) to throw a guy pitty points. Just like MMA in Japan. Points for trying.

But Ray definitely, started filling into that frame. He clearly was as big or bigger than LaMotta. He was way bigger than Basillio. As I have said before, Greb and Walker was smaller and fighting Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights, why don't we hold Robinson tothe same standard? Because we would have missed out on the the flashy KOs?

Fighting up is a skill. There are guys who have done it and done it well. Is it integral to greatness? Can we know size absolutely from weight? Is it always more of a struggle? When Jones fought Ruiz was it a struggle because of Ruiz size?

I don't pretend to know the answer to these questions lol.

[Rusty Tromboni]

[/B]

Fighting up is a skill. There are guys who have done it and done it well. Is it integral to greatness? Can we know size absolutely from weight? Is it always more of a struggle? When Jones fought Ruiz was it a struggle because of Ruiz size?

I don't pretend to know the answer to these questions lol.

Yeah, you can make different arguments. In fact, you should. It prevents lazy thinking.

The point of the matter here is that Ray's reputation was built on the generous evaluation of his ability to destroy opponents. Aesthetically, it's almost unrivaled. Every time you see it, it's more impressive than the time last. Beautiful stuff.

But when your best scalp, over 200 fights and 25 years in the ring, is Jake LaMotta, it demands we take a second look. A hard second look.

[The Old LefHook]

The universal custom in boxing is, has been and ever will be to get down to the lowest division in which you can comfortably perform, and start there. Robinson did that, like everyone else. He stayed there until it was no longer comfortable. There was no junior middleweight division at the time or, theoretically, he could have reigned there for as long as he wanted in his prime.

Robinson was a true welterweight his first few years in the division, sometimes weighing as little as 145. He made the welter limit for eight or nine years when he had to. Those were same day weigh-ins, mind you. Don't forget, Robby was also a narrow lad, a la Sandy Saddler.

[billeau2]

The universal custom in boxing is, has been and ever will be to get down to the lowest division in which you can comfortably perform, and start there. Robinson did that, like everyone else. He stayed there until it was no longer comfortable. There was no junior middleweight division at the time or, theoretically, he could have reigned there for as long as he wanted in his prime.

Robinson was a true welterweight his first few years in the division, sometimes weighing as little as 145. He made the welter limit for eight or nine years when he had to. Those were same day weigh-ins, mind you. Don't forget, Robby was also a narrow lad, a la Sandy Saddler.

Its kind of like...Lets look at Monzon (sp?) for a new york minute. He never fought Light Heavy if I recollect properly, BUT he was by all accounts a big Middle Weight. A big and rangy fighter with long length muscles that extended his reach. I would not say this makes him less of a skilled middle.

Your right, Robbie made the weights, and by all accounts did not starve himself doing so. He just happened to be on the big side for a welter.

Now lets take everybody's favorite fighter, a guy no one can deny is the best ever, period...Adrien Broner. Broner tried desperately to stay at a lower weight and could not, and his power did not carry up. That was unfortunately for him, one big difference. That and when I said he was the best I meant duckpin bowler.